News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by fulafel on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:50AM (#30282855)
Using "technically" is a license to nitpick! So, Europe by default means the continent. It doesn't include territories elsewhere and includes eg most of Russia, but not Caribbean or African islands (St Barths / Tenerife).
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:56AM (#30282892)
That's like saying Hawaii isn't America though.

It's technically true but when saying something doesn't exist in America, I think raising Hawaii as an exception is still valid or at least interesting.

The reference to "Europe" was likely more about political Europe than geographical Europe.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Someone on Thursday February 10, 2022 @03:46AM (#30283758)
No, it’s like saying Hawaii isn’t part of North America. I don’t think that’s controversial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii: “It is the only state outside North America”

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by fulafel on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:58AM (#30282903)
"America" is used by US people as a synonym for the country, not the continent. Europe, the EU, and names countries are used with distinction at least by Europeans.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @01:20AM (#30282990)
Europe is used by most EU people as meaning the European Union. I lived in a few French overseas territories and in addition to being in France, I was definitely "in Europe" even if not in a geographical sense.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Tor3 on Thursday February 10, 2022 @02:55AM (#30283468)
>Europe is used by most EU people as meaning the European Union.

No. Not by this European and it's almost universal to be specific when you talk about these things. That some would say "Europe" but really mean "the set of countries which are part of the European Union" is so rare that I can't recall anyone doing that (except people from outside Europe. That does happen sometimes).

"Europe" to Europeans means the geographical area called Europe.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @03:07AM (#30283531)
Probably depends on the country then, but it happens all the time in France, Belgium and even the UK.

I'd say it's even rare in France to say "Union Européenne" instead of just Europe, unless it's in a quite formal context.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by burmanm on Thursday February 10, 2022 @01:48AM (#30283122)
EU is definitely not a synonym to Europe. That would exclude UK, Norway and other countries that are certainly in Europe. I've never heard anyone even thinking those two things are the same.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by samatman on Thursday February 10, 2022 @02:13AM (#30283261)
The claim was not about Europe, nor about the EU: it was about Europeans, namely that they wouldn't be so 'irresponsible' as to run a towerless airfield.

The citizens of St. Barts are French. Are you claiming they aren't European? Tell me, do they become European when they visit the Metropole? Does this quality vanish when they return to the Caribbean? I'd love an explanation!

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Tor3 on Thursday February 10, 2022 @02:58AM (#30283493)
"Europe" is a purely geographical term (to Europeans at least), not a political one.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Xylakant on Thursday February 10, 2022 @05:41AM (#30284532)
I’m a European and if you’d ask me without any context I’d not think of the geographical term which includes chunks of Russia. I’d initially take it as a synonym for the EU and associated states. So YMMV.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by samatman on Thursday February 10, 2022 @11:06AM (#30288160)
Yes but European is not, please don't be obtuse. You don't stop being European when you leave Europe, and you don't magically become a European the moment you get off an airplane onto the subcontinent.

This entire thread is a response to a claim about Europeans, and I took pains to draw out that distinction. Yet here you are talking about Europe. Why?

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 10, 2022 @02:51AM (#30283448)
Born and raised there? I would say that they are non-European French. And visiting France wouldn't change that classification.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by rosndo on Thursday February 10, 2022 @04:08AM (#30283925)
Ethnically and culturally the residents of St Barth are definitely Europeans. French people who moved to another part of France.

People born there? French kids of French parents.

If St Barth had different demographics, there might be a more meaningful debate to be had about this. It’s not exactly the melting pot you might expect from an old colony.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by snovv_crash on Thursday February 10, 2022 @06:30AM (#30284798)
So Europe doesn't include Switzerland, UK and Norway? No, I haven't heard it used like that.

I have heard it used on a context where the speaker only means Western and Central Europe, and not Eastern Europe.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @06:43AM (#30284888)
Of course it does include these countries! Just like America does include Canada, Argentina and even France.

I'm just saying the word "Europe" is in practice very often used, within the EU, as a synonym for European Union and I certainly didn't think that would be controversial. On the other hand, in my experience I've never heard "Europe" being used to exclude Eastern Europe, although I've certainly heard it used to exclude the UK (by British persons most often).

And Saint Barthélémy or Réunion island being "in Europe" certainly doesn't mean in any way that Switzerland isn't, I don't think my comment had even the slightest hint of that.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by cromka on Thursday February 10, 2022 @07:52AM (#30285340)
> Of course it does include these countries! Just like America does include Canada, Argentina and even France.

You were responding to a comment that claimed ""America" is used by US people as a synonym for the country, not the continent." (rightfully so, from my 6 years experience in the US). You responded by making a point that, similarly, Europe is used as a synonym for EU. Which many Europeans claimed it is absolutely not typical (rightfully so, as EU citizen). And now you're saying that the term "Europe" actually does include other, non-EU countries... Quite confusing, to be honest, what your point here is.

> I'm just saying the word "Europe" is in practice very often used, within the EU, as a synonym for European Union

Absolutely disagree, it's not common at all. People say EU when they think EU. It is quite common to refer to oneself as European, though, not Europunionan or whatever, when one is thinking of EU citizenship. And perhaps this is what you had in mind.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @09:30AM (#30286435)
> And now you're saying that the term "Europe" actually does include other, non-EU countries... Quite confusing, to be honest, what your point here is.

I don't even understand clearly what we are arguing about. The term "Europe" has different meanings depending on context and speaker, as this thread seems to evidence clearly. All I'm saying at the core is that it's really not exceptional to consider overseas France as part of Europe, and this is actually done all the time here in France.

Regarding the use of "EU" vs. "Europe" our experience clearly differs, but I have to take offense at your claim that my experience is wrong, having lived most of my life in several countries of the EU myself.

Just as another datapoint, look at Wikipedia's disambiguation page for Europe[0]:

Europe may also refer to [...] European Union, a European political supranational entity that excludes Russia and several other eastern European countries.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_(disambiguation)

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by snovv_crash on Saturday February 12, 2022 @05:28AM (#30311639)
Perhaps this is a specifically French thing. From the rest of the European countries, which typically don't have overseas territories, Europe refers to the continent, and typically not even Eastern Europe at that.

I've heard people try to use Europe in the context of EU, but typically it requires a clarification because someone misinterprets what they say or it's actually incorrect due to the hold-outs of Switzerland, Norway, UK etc. I heard it more a few years ago than I do now, these days people tend to specifically refer to EU, and Europe more refers to Schengen or the geographical region.

If someone says a European holiday, or it was designed in Europe, or someone is from Europe, the listener doesn't expect Reunion or Serbia, they expect somewhere roughly between Czechia and Spain. Including others under the Europe umbrella would be purposefully deceitful from the speaker's side, or trying to make a political point.

Then again, perhaps this is a central European perspective.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by js8 on Thursday February 10, 2022 @02:42AM (#30283400)
Wouldn't Puerto Rico be a better analogy than Hawaii?

Hawaii is more like Malta in EU, a full member state.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by seszett on Thursday February 10, 2022 @03:02AM (#30283513)
Saint Barthélémy is closer to Hawaii in status. Puerto Rico doesn't have much representation at the federal level as far as I know, I'm not even sure if people there are full US citizens.

People in Saint Barthélémy are just regular French and EU citizens who live far away from the mainland. The territory does have some degree of autonomy (more than other overseas départements) but still less so than a US state relative to the US federal government.

In that, most French territories would have a status maybe more comparable to a county within a US state (afaiu the US system) than to a US state within the US. The whole comparison is a bit sketchy but France isn't a federal state and only New Caledonia and Polynesia have local legislation, all the rest of the country is very unitary in political and administrative aspects.

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by nwallin on Thursday February 10, 2022 @06:56PM (#30294663)
Puerto Ricans are natural born US citizens. They're eligible to be elected President, for instance, which is not a right granted to someone who petitions for and receives US citizenship, or a person born to a US citizen parent. Perhaps you're thinking of American Samoa, which does not automatically grant citizenship based upon being born there, but does grant US residency and a US passport.

For instances, when there was all the talk about Barack Obama's birth certificate, it wouldn't have disqualified him as a candidate to claim his birthplace was in Puerto Rico. (See also John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which had a similar status to Puerty Rico, but distinct from American Samoa.) It would have disqualified his candidacy if they were able to prove he was born in Kenya or American Samoa, which would have made him not a natural born citizen, even though his mother is a US citizen, which would have Barack Obama a US citizen at birth, regardless of where he was born.

St Bart's, like New Caledonia and Polynesia, is an EU Overseas Country/Territory, and a French Overseas Collectivity. St Bart's isn't as close politically to France as French Guiana or Martinique, which are both French Overseas Regions, and EU Outermost Regions.

So I would compare places like French Guiana or Martinique to places like Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands, and places like St Bart's, New Caledonia, and French Polynesia to places like American Samoa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territori...

Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by rosndo on Thursday February 10, 2022 @04:04AM (#30283891)
Yep, I was in St Barth when Macron ordered countrywide lockdowns from his throne in Paris. I was really surprised to see all the local businesses immediately complying, they sure seem OK with being French.
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by cmurf on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:05PM (#30289167)
Puerto Ricans are full U.S. citizens. But it's complicated... https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-0...
Re:JetBlue A320 tail strike on takeoff, B350 in opposite dir... by Bayart on Thursday February 10, 2022 @04:03AM (#30283888)
> So, Europe by default means the continent.

« Europe » by default means the EU where I'm from. There's no standard.