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Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by mensetmanusman on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:57PM (#30277602)
The iPhone is only valuable because of developers. If they all coordinated together, they could get apple to change. Imagine all the apps breaking one day…
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by jjtheblunt on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:21PM (#30277930)
I feel that's a knee-jerk assertion.

Is no value assigned to the truly amazing custom silicon that sips power while efficiently supporting an instruction set that, in turn, supports developers external and internal?

Is no value assigned to the work that goes into evolving with the wireless network standards? Those are internal people, generally with decade+ hardcore engineering backgrounds.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by random314 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:53PM (#30278330)
Of course there is value. That's why iPhones are priced 1000$+
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by adventured on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:28PM (#30278037)
And it's well worth noting that the iPhone came first, not the wave of developers. Apple provided the platform and potential, they put in enormous resources and effort to make the iPhone work out, to deploy a phone in a new manner (bending the telecom providers to their will). What existed for developers before the iPhone (the languishing Windows desktop, much amazing)? If the developers are the primary, why'd they have to wait for Apple to make everything possible?

It's because the developers are secondary. Apple is the primary, the key to it all.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by LouisSayers on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:50PM (#30278304)
Anyone that remembers history correctly will remember when the iPhone was first released Apple wanted to make ALL the apps.

Then developers started jailbreaking the phones, adding their own apps to them.

The Appstore wasn't obvious for Apple, and it was only after developer backlash that they changed their tune.

So you can say that Apple did everything but the truth is that the success of the iPhone is from the COMBINED effort of Apple, and the work of developers in the community.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by imwillofficial on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:13PM (#30278563)
“The Appstore wasn't obvious for Apple, and it was only after developer backlash that they changed their tune.“

This is not “remembering history correctly” at all.

Apple didn’t have an SDK ready, and tried to sell the shit sandwich of Web Apps as a stopgap.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by LouisSayers on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:23PM (#30278688)
>Apple didn’t have an SDK ready, and tried to sell the shit sandwich of Web Apps as a stopgap.

And how exactly do you know that it always was their intent to make an SDK for third party developers?

From https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...

"The App Store came later and apparently as a reaction to jailbreakers and developer backlash."

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by imwillofficial on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:46AM (#30282835)
That’s an editorial, and they floated the eventual App Store idea in dev talks early on.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by selectodude on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:34PM (#30278108)
I’m not sure how people don’t understand this. If certain apps stopped working on my iPhone, I wouldn’t get an android. I would just stop using that app.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by random314 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:57PM (#30279894)
The argument is - what happens when all non apple apps stopped working on the iPhone
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by kcplate on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:03PM (#30281149)
A straight up mental fantasy exercise with zero possibility of ever becoming reality so ultimately what good is going through the exercise?

One, you would never get the complete boycott that it would require to have an impact—-very few app publishers relying on app profits would risk a profitable app just to prove the point, especially if the publisher is a publicly traded company. You would have to rely on activist super small (single dev or two) app studios for your strikers and, no offense to those smaller studios, those apps generally are not the ones that people will miss beyond a mild irritation.

Two, for every app participating in the boycott, there would be a similar app that didn’t participate that could backfill. The non-participating apps would be well known within a day or two and would start displacing striking apps pretty much immediately.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by random314 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:21PM (#30282062)
I am not sure why you are arguing with me. I am paraphrasing the article which you seemed to have misunderstood in your original comment.

Of course, this is a hypothetical because the app developers are fragmented while Apple is a single entity. The blog argues that to be fair, Apple should donate 30% of its iPhone revenue to app developers as an iPhone without 3rd party apps is fundamentally crippled. The meta argument is that Apple taking a 30% cut of app revenue is fundamentally unfair.

Apple has set a new precedent with the 30% cut. Operating systems such as windows, macOS and unix that came before iOS never demanded a 30% cut of app revenue installed on the device.

Would you also be supportive of Microsoft and Unix vendors demanding 30% of revenue generated by applications on their operating system - starting 2022?

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by kcplate on Friday February 11, 2022 @12:04AM (#30297221)
I was speaking to the pointlessness of a hypothetical boycott, not arguing directly with you.

I disagree that the device is crippled without 3rd party apps. It may not be quite as useful or perhaps fun, but it would still be a far more useful device than a Motorola Razr phone or a Blackberry.

Yes it’s a new premise. Apple provides an app market to 1.65B devices to app developers with little entrance risk to the devs much beyond the elbow grease they spent creating the app. How much more money and effort would a developer have to spend to get their app that level of exposure without the App Store? A lot, and all of it amounting to real dollars at risk with no guarantee of payoff. What’s truly at risk publishing at the App Store? Nothing but a publishers time. Even the 30% you pay to Apple only hits if you are making money. It’s a commission, they marketed and sold the app for you, handled the transaction, distribution, and dropped some cash in your bank account. 30% in my mind is pretty cheap for what you get. Any other business that relied on third parties services to handle the marketing, sales, shipping, and finance transaction of the product would not bat an eye if those costs ran to 30%.

As for Unix and Windows deciding to charge a fee? That wouldn’t bother me a bit if they were marketing, selling, and handling the transaction for my app. Do it.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by lancesells on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:02PM (#30277670)
It's a symbiotic relationship. They both serve each other. Things could always be better and Apple is not a good guy but I doubt any large app or organization is either.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by Grustaf on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:20PM (#30278643)
The original iPhone had quite a cult following, as did the iPod. People were flocking to them without any apps. It's because the iPhone was so cool that developers wanted to make apps for it. So it's pretty reductive to say that it's "only" valuable because of developers. Best regards, mac/iOS developer
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by geodel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:19PM (#30277898)
A large number of developers work for companies. They don't need to deal with Apple as their employers/clients take care of all that. On freelance side free apps do not see much issue and paid apps devs are not in position to organize worldwide to make Apple change policy in haste.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by bduerst on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:33PM (#30278093)
Tragedy of the commons, in a triple sided market, prevents this.

At the end of the day, these developers are still competing with each other, and rational actors will break from the coordination to profit off the users for themselves.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by ronyfadel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:08PM (#30277746)
They'll need to go through Apple's approval process first. And if they mention breaking one day in any manner, could get rejected, or worse, booted off the store. Apple has developers by the neck.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by fyzix on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:15PM (#30277849)
Most of the useful apps has to connect to a server, let's say app devs stop serving requests for iOS, Apple would be pressured to come to the table because the iPhone is useless without apps.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by nomel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:19PM (#30277905)
This would take such a critical mass that it's silly to consider. Without some critical mass, the average consumer would see that the rest of their apps work fine, and probably just give the app a 1 star review "it keeps freezing".
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by manquer on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:42PM (#30278212)
Unions are able to organize with similar power inbalance. Collective action is not impossible, just difficult.

Nobody will a join a union just to strike ( a.k.a pull the apps) however making collective to better negotiate with someone with lot of control over your revenue (salary) is not inherently a dumb idea.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by nomel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:29PM (#30280279)
I would naively claim that unions have power because they are physically localized, and represent similar people (income, standard of living, laws, etc), and create a very physically localized skill vacuum when they strike, that applies immediate and significant pressure.

App Store developers are sprinkled all over the world, so not too much is consistent between them. Getting enough of these varied people to collectively pause their income, and allow their competitors to flourish, long enough for Apple to even notice/care, is probably much harder. I think it would be even harder to present the applications failure in a way that an average consumer would sympathize with or even understand.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by manquer on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:48PM (#30281023)
The small indie developers will not influence any Apple decision making anyway.

You only need really apps with say 10-50M downloads to join together, most of them know each other and many of them are made by rival companies who have an interest in keeping Apple in check.

Indie developers could of course be invited to join such action, but apart from PR and other aspects they won't move the needle either way with Apple.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by geodel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:24PM (#30277973)
Indeed. If some random app does not work I, as a user, would call that app as crap and not Iphone.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by geodel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:22PM (#30277943)
Also majority of those serious apps are part of enterprise's digital platform who are not going to knowingly break their Apps.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by ronyfadel on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:21PM (#30277929)
These apps will be booted off the store (look at Epic), bye-bye revenue
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by asperous on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:08PM (#30277743)
If all apps go on strike, an app that crosses the picket line gets all the revenue in their market. This is related to the economic term "cartel", and why they are unstable in practice.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by Iolaum on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:16PM (#30277855)
in practice?

Instead of posting anecdotal evidence of mine to the contrary, I ll ask the following. If cartels are unstable in practice, then why do states need competition authorities to punish price fixing, and similar practices?

I 'd say cartel's are unstable in theory but not necessarily in practice.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by AtlasBarfed on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:29PM (#30278047)
Yeah, I would argue that almost every market/segment in America is dominated by a cartel or monopoly.

Even things like commodities have hidden cartels and monopolies. Oil may be a commodity, but the refining facilities are most certainly cartel-owned. Agriculture is seemingly not a cartel, but ADM and Cargill dominate certain aspects of the supply chain and processing.

Instead I would argue that iterative game theory of free market economics would stabilize to a cartel or monopoly. Once one of the open competitors determines an advantage, and/or has substantial access to near-free capital (um, what's the interest rate of the last two decades?), then they can acquire their competitors.

Then they can apply barriers to entry such as regulation and lockin contracts with equipment suppliers and the like. Look at the practices of Intel to lockout AMD. Look at how Microsoft exerted power on PC makers. Once you are big, you can influence the suppliers and distributors to lockout competitors.

As long as size is an intimidator (and it almost always will be except to extreme examples of markets), it will be effective. The only time it helps is when it slows response until an upstart using an entirely different supply chain and technology (like Tesla) gains such a fundamental advantage they can't stamp it out.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by christophilus on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:50PM (#30278301)
What? I buy iPhones because they work, are simple, are supported for a long, long time, and aren't riddled with trackers, trojans, and whatever the heck Android generally has baked in. I have very few apps on my iPhone other than the ones that come pre-installed (by Apple, not by my cell provider).

I'm sure I'm atypical, but I do wonder how much an app-developer rebellion would really affect folks. I can't imagine my wife or parents switching to Android even if all of the non-Apple apps were to disappear tomorrow.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by kelnos on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:15PM (#30278584)
> I can't imagine my wife or parents switching to Android even if all of the non-Apple apps were to disappear tomorrow.

That seems surprising. Do your wife and parents not use Uber/Lyft/etc.? Do they not use any banking apps? Do they not use any social media apps? Yelp? Food delivery apps? Messaging apps aside from iMessage? Video streaming apps? And that's just from looking at one of my home screens!

Do you really believe they'd be happy with a phone that suddenly couldn't do all that anymore? I very much doubt that.

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by bhelkey on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:20PM (#30278638)
The App Store supported over half a trillion dollars in billings and sales in 2019[1]. According to Satista, that is more than the global coffee market[2].

[1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/06/apples-app-store-ecos...

[2] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/hot-drinks/coffee/world....

Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by qzw on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:27PM (#30278011)
That level of coordination among human beings has only been possible a handful of times in all of recorded history. And most cases involved wars or absolute autocrats, or both. Good luck forming any kind of an agreement between hundreds of thousands of independent companies and individuals across multiple countries. I can’t even get my wife to agree on what to order for lunch.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by nonameiguess on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:34PM (#30278110)
Not third party. You still have a pretty valuable device if you use nothing but apps provided by Apple.
Re:Apple’s profit is always the priority–no matter the cost by kelnos on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:17PM (#30278604)
Valuable, yes. Clearly it was valuable enough back in 2007 before there was an App Store. But nowadays, would it be valuable enough? I doubt it.