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Re:Vitalik Buterin on shape rotators vs. wordcels by PaulHoule on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:28PM (#30228683)
That's a non-sequitur. If they were rapists they wouldn't be celibate anymore, they'd be criminals.

You can propagandize them that rape is wrong, most of them believe that anyway. It's not going to make any difference in how they relate to women, hate them or not.

Many young men are growing up completely alienated. It starts out with broken homes and absent fathers and then the exclusion of men from early childhood education, which teaches young boys that education is a girl thing. Even if a boy gets good role models most of them believe social change is happening so rapidly that they've got nothing to learn from those role models.

This lady talks about how bad online dating is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqldQzGV-lY

100% of guys who are doing online dating are interested in meeting either for a hookup or a relationship. A large fraction of women know they can get hundreds of matches with little effort and feel so much validation from that they ghost them all. 20% of the guys get 80% of the matches, many guys get absolutely nothing.

Many people seem to think that men are invulnerable and only women get hurt by these negative social trends, but when "pornography hurts women" it's because a man was watching pornography, was hurt by pornography and passed on the damage. My son lost his best friend, Scientology disconnection style, because his friend fell under the spell of this loser

https://www.youtube.com/c/WheatWaffles

and his friend doesn't want to be "mogged" because my son is taller than him.

Re:Vitalik Buterin on shape rotators vs. wordcels by zozbot234 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:46PM (#30228820)
It's not about "propagandizing them that rape is wrong". It's about freeing them from their entitlement complex around sex/relationships with women, and telling them how to actually become more overtly appealing to them. Online dating is a non-starter because it doesn't let men show off their positive qualities and attitudes, apart from those shallowest most 'Chad'-like ones that incels always love to complain about so much. That's why women largely shun that environment; getting "hundreds of matches" is virtually worthless to them when they know so little about what their typical match is like, and that very environment largely attracts low-quality folks.

You could call that a "bad social trend", but it's also a symptom of how clueless and self-entitled many males are. The fact that this might be due to a lack of good role models doesn't dispense with the need to address this issue. Doing so will hopefully let these folks integrate the understanding that "of course rape is wrong" within their worldview without suffering from cognitive dissonance, or thinking that it's plainly impossible to successfully relate to women unless you happen to meet some unreal "Chad" stereotype.

Re:Vitalik Buterin on shape rotators vs. wordcels by PaulHoule on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:04PM (#30228935)
You seem to understand the mission. "Clueless" is a valid adjective to use but any form of "entitled" is a hateful term that rolls off the tongue easily and ends dialog almost as quickly when it is heard. Also ‘rape’ has nothing to do with it and it’s a harmful selfish meme that some people can’t mention ‘males’ without bringing up ‘rape’.

Getting through the "clueless" problem seems nearly intractable. If you could tell people "make this small change and it will make a small improvement in your situation" there would be a clear answer, but you can't.

There's a persistent myth of "male privilege" that applies to the top 1% percent of men but not the majority of men. That's a major theoretical error that's obvious in 1st wave feminist books such as The Second Sex, The Feminine Mystique and it goes uncorrected to this day.

For someone who was bullied in elementary school, sexual invisibility in high school and college was a retraumatization that still affects me more than 30 years later. Back then I felt completely isolated, it wasn't a pain that others my age would admit to, and adults had bad advice like "be yourself" or "it will get better in the sweet by-and-by." Today young men are finding solidarity in dangerous social movements and various forms of "men are beasts" will just isolate them further.

Re:Vitalik Buterin on shape rotators vs. wordcels by zozbot234 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:38PM (#30229152)
> but any form of "entitled" is a hateful term

It's a valid description of an attitude which is often quite overtly held, and is ultimately a lot more damaging to the "incel" themself than anyone they might want to interact with. Using a term as strong as "hateful" in this context seems like a thought-terminating-cliche which does little to address the problem.

> If you could tell people "make this small change and it will make a small improvement in your situation" there would be a clear answer, but you can't.

Why not? There are plenty of feasible approaches; the main problem is that there's no structured, widely-supported effort to collectively raise awareness about their potential benefits. The education system has a valid role to play here.