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Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by endisneigh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:03PM (#30213170)
What an disingenuous article. Yes natural gas appliances help to cook the climate. Farting also releases methane and helps cook the climate.

Can we focus on the real issues. USA natural gas kitchen appliances aren’t the main contributor to climate change. I’d be surprised if it’s even in the top 1000 issues.

You might say you can work on multiple issues - sure, but people only have so much time to research on issues and so much attention to spare.

Furthermore who is going to fund all of this conversion to induction? Whose going to require the tens of millions of homes to high gauge and high voltage wiring?

/rant

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by bayindirh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:09PM (#30213252)
Induction or electric stoves doesn't need high gauge, insane current wiring to work. In EU, You can power one from a 220V/16A fuse, and you don't even need to dedicate that circuit to it. Mine is connected to a bog standard wall outlet (It came with a plug).
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by pandaman on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:32PM (#30215652)
I am not a physicist but from high school physics I've got an impression that the DC power is VxI, and AC power is less than that (averaging the instantaneous VxI value) so the 220Vx16A is going to give at most 3.5K watt, right?

I've checked the specs and my stove's burners are 3 x 18K and 3 x 15K BTU/h. Which is approximately 5K and 4K watt. Even one of the small burners is more powerful than the entire stove you mentioned.

I am sure an induction stove does not waste any energy and everything goes only in the heating the pan but I don't see how can this account for an order of magnitude in power difference.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by tagoregrtst on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:14PM (#30215975)
220 V is already in RMS [1] so its just 220V * 16 A = 3.5kW (current is also rms)

Of course, thats truly only correct for a resistive load (but, without knowing much about induction stoves, its probably within 10% - modern power electronics are amazing)

[1] Root Mean Square. Basically the measure needed to make a simply multiplication give you the power. Other ways to measure line voltage are

Amplitude. This would be the A in V(t) = Asin(wt). A = sqrt(Vrms)

Peak to peak. This is 2xA.

They’re all useful ways to thinking of the same thing. If you’re designing insulation you’re designing for A, or peak to peak. If you’re designing a water kettle, you’re interested in Vrms.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by pandaman on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:27PM (#30216067)
Great, let's say it can draw 4Kwatt from the wall. It's still nowhere close to a 100K BTU stove (~28Kwatt). To have this much of electric power in the US you'd need a 120A 220V (actually 240 nowadays) outlet. I don't even know if codes allow this much current inside the house.
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by bayindirh on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:14AM (#30221836)
The heat of the fire is not completely transferred to the cooking utensil due to air and losses, on induction and resistive stove tops, the heat losses are much lower since you don't heat anything in inductive (magnetic field heats the metal directly), and electric stovetops have no air-gap to transfer heat.

So, in the end, 90% of the time you're looking at the same cooking duration at the end of the day. So, you don't need that 120A load.

In other words, if the box says 5 minutes on medium, it's 5 minutes on medium. Regardless of gas, electric or induction.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by pandaman on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:36AM (#30222080)
Yeah, I know that, I've even mentioned it above as I mentioned that gas does not lose nearly as much heat as necessary to make a 3.5Kwatt stove as efficient as a 28Kwatt one.
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by endisneigh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:10PM (#30213270)
You cannot replace a gas oven and 5 burner stove as shown in the paper with a 16A induction stove.

Furthermore the oven you use will likely be resistive and inefficient, likely being derived from dirtier energy like coal. Or ironically also from natural gas to begin with.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by bayindirh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:12PM (#30213291)
You can get a set or get them independently. Bosch is recommending 16A even for sets for ~20 years (we had one?).

Both ovens we have (the older and the newer ones) are hidden element, isolated units which spend most of their time off after reaching to the desired temperature, and they're not burning through energy all the time.

And the ceramic coating inside them are self cleaning with the cooking heat too.

You can't guarantee renewables everywhere, can you?

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by endisneigh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:13PM (#30213312)
Perhaps that’s true but USA wiring is 120V /15A per breaker without rewiring so your point isn’t really relevant. Older houses might even be 110V and not have dedicated circuits in the kitchen.

Not sure why you even brought up anywhere that’s not the US when the paper is talking specifically about US kitchens

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by bayindirh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:15PM (#30213345)
I'm talking about the possible technology, and isn't US electrical code allows 220V outlets for high power applications like washer/drier sets? Do I have been lied to?
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by tagoregrtst on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:20PM (#30216022)
All US homes have 220V at the breaker [1]. That doesnt mean its available anywhere else in the home since the only appliance that is necessarily 220V is AC (dryers, ovens, all come in gas) and the AC is typically hardwired. You also have a lot less versatility in how you use 220 in the US (just look at the size of the NEMA outlets)

[1] Europe was poorer than the US at the turn of the last century and adopted 220 to save on copper. 110, all else equal (and its not) safer. In the US, two phases of 110 come in from the transformer box outside to your box 180 degrees out of phase. Taking both phases, you get 220V.

The Brits, to save even more copper, did something insane - ring circuits

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by endisneigh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:17PM (#30213368)
The point is that kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally. converting costs money, a lot of it. Money better spent fixing industrial issues.
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by vel0city on Sunday February 06, 2022 @12:02PM (#30234335)
> kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally

I'm from the US. Every home I've lived in (9) has had at least one or more 240V 30A circuits in the kitchen, my current home has 2 and it was built in the 80s so not exactly a modern build. There usually aren't a lot of outlets, as things like built-in ovens and ranges are often hardwired and not on a plug. Though the stand-alone oven/range units do often have a plug, but you don't normally see it unless you're swapping out units. They'll usually have a NEMA 14-30 or 10-30.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by tagoregrtst on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:19PM (#30216016)
It cost me $400 to have an electrician instal a 220V NEMA plug in my home.

Granted, it was an easy instal - unfinished, small basement giving easy access to the kitchen and 20 feet of 50 A cable.

Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by vel0city on Sunday February 06, 2022 @12:04PM (#30234362)
A one-story house with an unfinished basement makes it sooo easy to do a lot of common home upgrades. I'm jealous, everything around me is just slab-style houses so it can be a pain to do anything like plumbing work without just resorting to having stuff in the attic.
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by ghostly_s on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:10PM (#30213272)
I can't see the paywalled article, but I believe the main point of the underlying research was not climate change but the impact on indoor air quality and unrecognized hazard to human health.
Re:New research: natural gas appliances emit much more metha... by endisneigh on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:12PM (#30213302)
I read the paper and they do not contextualize the effects in terms of actual illness or life expectancy.

It’s as useful as saying the emissions from frying food is bad for you, which is true, but simultaneously not really meaningful.