News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by ghaff on Thursday February 03, 2022 @09:57AM (#30193202)
Starlink is a game changer if you don't have decent wired broadband. We had about 1 Mbps download and were the last house on the road who could get it. Then we didn't even have that. Verizon hotspot was "ok" but data was expensive so you had to watch your usage. Starlink isn't perfect--had a couple of days downtime over Christmas--but basically it works fine with 20+ Mbps bandwidth.

With the prior DSL, I couldn't have worked from the house in a meaningful way. (My AT&T wireless is also very marginal.) Now I mostly could.

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by clvx on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:09AM (#30193360)
Similar situation but I switched to T-Mobile. I have a Starlink order but it got delayed 6 months. At this point, I'll just cancel it because T-Mobile Home Internet is a game changer.
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by cagey on Thursday February 03, 2022 @12:58PM (#30196018)
I did exactly this. Started using T-Mobile Home Internet (5G "trashcan" modem) back in 21.02 (same month I ordered Starlink); TMHI service has gotten progressively better since that time. 21.12 I received my Starlink ultimatum ("if you don't cancel in 14(?) days we're sending your HW and billing you $100's more") and I decided TMHI @ $50/month (yes, completely unlimited) was sufficient. Also Verizon now has competing 5G and LTE offerings, so I figure worst case I (who have NO wired ISP option) at least have a strong backup plan. As another redundancy: everyone in my household has migrated to Visible cell phone service, which provides unlimited (but throttled at 5-10 Mbps) hotspot which we use maybe 2-3 times per month when TMHI service gets sluggish.
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by the_only_law on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:00PM (#30196057)
I thought about switching to one of those mobile internet providers, but it wasn’t available in my area, which I don’t quite understand. My providers network is certainly available, as I use it on my phone daily. Maybe it’s using some different band?
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by clvx on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:33PM (#30196552)
My location “didn’t have coverage” as I live at the edge of my town followed by Murdoch’s ranch next to me. I talked to the rep to the point of just let me try it as there’s nothing to lose. They already provide full refund on the product for the first 30 days. At the beginning the signal and speeds were shit(using trashcan). I installed a couple of MIMO antennas. Now, I have 30Mbs up/down consistently. I believe 5G is gonna be a game changer for rural areas. It’s just easy: plug it, turn it on, use it. No technicians, no wiring (if you don’t use antennas), no fixed place in your house.

Also check cellmapper to check for near by antennas and bands. More info in r/tmobileisp

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by cagey on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:05PM (#30196122)
I suspect availability of 5G or LTE "home internet" service is gated by not only signal strength but also by the vendor's assessment of their (tower, backhaul?) capacity in the locale.
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by mdasen on Thursday February 03, 2022 @05:29PM (#30199963)
It's definitely not just about coverage, but also about how much capacity they have in an area. They don't want to overload the network given that home internet users will use a lot more data than mobile users. Likewise, they don't want to sign up people for them to have a bad experience, cancel service, and spread bad word of mouth.

T-Mobile has been managing how many people they sign up in an area. Sometimes T-Mobile's home internet is available in your area, but then they get a certain number of signups and it becomes unavailable in your area until they're able to increase capacity or customers cancel. It's possible that it was available in their area and others signed up for it.

AT&T is only offering service in very limited areas and it seems like they're mostly trying to replace their DSL connections that they don't want to upgrade to fiber.

Verizon's service is currently pretty small scale, but they're looking to grow it. Again, it will be limited areas because no one wants to overwhelm the network.

Even if you have good phone service, there's a big difference between someone using 10GB on mobile and someone using 500GB as a home user. Signing up 10 home users could be like adding 500 new phone users in a small area. That can be a lot of traffic and they don't want to start seeing their mobile users cancel service because home users are clogging up the network. So they want to roll it out a bit slowly, especially as they increase capacity over the next few years with midband 5G.

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by alexktz on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:24AM (#30193578)
How "unlimited" is the T-Mobile Home Internet package?
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by AshleyGrant on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:42AM (#30193828)
In my experience it's been totally unlimited. I try not to abuse it, but when I re-image my desktop, Backblaze will end up uploading multiple terabytes (even though I've inherited the backup state and the drive/directory structure is identical). I've never had a single issue.

The Home Internet service is 100% deprioritized compared to postpaid cell phone data, so they really are selling "excess" capacity.

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by spaniard89277 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:07AM (#30193335)
What about a small coop ISP? If you manage to use electric or telephone posts deploying fiber and getting a carrier is doable, at least here in Spain.
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by mdasen on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:08PM (#30197141)
Some towns in the US have done this, but it isn't without difficulties.

Just looking at a satellite map of Spain, I see La Langa. It seems like it has very few people, but they all live in a small town center. Looking at Uclés, it's the same: tiny place, but everyone is living in the town center.

Let's look at Potomac, MD in the US. The roads are sprawling with giant houses all far apart. That's a lot more distance to run fiber to get it to each house. Potomac is a rich suburb of DC and has fine internet (it's still dense enough for that), but the US keeps sprawling. Look at a satellite view of Pike Township, PA. There's a lot of houses with huge distances in between and no discernible town center.

> If you manage to use electric or telephone posts deploying fiber and getting a carrier is doable

I think this can also be an issue in the US since place might not have easy/cheap access to those utility poles. Title II carriers in the US get cheap, regulated access to utility poles. That's traditionally been your phone company. I believe the FCC tried reclassifying broadband as Title II under the Obama administration, but it might have been reversed under the Trump administration. If you're someone that already has access to the utility poles, you don't want more people getting cheap access to them.

Even if you have access to the utility poles, you can face difficulty. As noted, you aren't wiring up a town center, you can be wiring up places with a huge amount of distance between people. Even if that isn't a problem, property owners might want new cables buried. Even when power lines are above ground, sometimes they're underground from the street to the house. Many houses might be set back from the street by 50 meters so it can be a larger distance. You can have a 300m road with 3 houses on it each with a 50m set back from the street.

That's not to say it isn't possible (and some towns have created coop ISPs), but costs add up. Uclés has 140 people in it, but everyone seems to live within a 250m radius of the city center. That seems pretty easy to wire up. Pike Township, PA has 1,700 people that are incredibly spread out. That seems a lot harder to wire up. It's not impossible, but it seems harder.

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by swah on Thursday February 03, 2022 @11:49AM (#30194833)
For those of us outside US, how far from the urban area you have to be to not have good LTE and/or fiber internet? (Also, does Amazon deliver in those places?)
Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by mdasen on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:33PM (#30196565)
It's hard to answer something like this. Even for Europe, it's hard to answer something like this. There's a big difference between Inverness in Scotland (47,000 people in the city and 63,000 in the urban area) and London. Are you measuring from the city center or from where things drop off to farmland?

In Europe, cities often drop off into farmland very abruptly. You have built-up areas and then very abruptly farmland. In the US, you can have suburbs where there's 1 house on an acre (4,000 square meters) going for a long time. Even 1 house every 2-4 acres (8,000-12,000 square meters) isn't unusual.

If you look at a satellite map between cities in the Netherlands, you can see that there isn't any sprawling houses between Rotterdam and Utrecht. Places like Oudewater exists, but it's dense. It might not be as dense as larger cities, but people don't have enormous plots of land. You can easily walk to neighbors and shops. In the US, a lot of people live in areas where it can be 5 miles to get to shops.

In the US, people often have the issue that the wired internet doesn't go up their street which might be a couple miles with only a handful of houses. In the US, they might face costs getting it from the street to their house because their house is set back a hundred meters from the road. This isn't super typical, but it's typical enough that it effects a lot of people.

I think part of the issue is that there is no real demarcation between the urban area and outside it in the US. I can look at a satellite view of a city in Europe and clearly discern city vs farmland. In the US, a lot of rich people left the city for suburbs where they could set land use policies that kept lower income people (and often minorities they didn't want around) out of their town (and out of their schools and out of their tax base). They still wanted to be able to commute into the city, but often passed laws mandating minimum lot sizes, minimum setbacks from the street for houses, and emphasized local control to prevent housing they deemed undesirable from being made. These places have fine wired internet.

But they kinda slowly melt into progressively more rural places rather than having a clear demarcation. The US's emphasis on cars and a certain cultural idealism around rural life means that there are people that want to live semi-rural while not really having a rural lifestyle or job. They just drive farther and cheap fuel and subsidies make that possible.

The lack of coherent land use policies means that the area where people consider themselves as part of an urban area can keep expanding. Maybe a developer wants to build new housing. The city and suburbs don't want more housing and so the developer picks a piece of land just past the last suburb. It's another 15 minutes from the city by car, but with skyrocketing housing prices, there are probably going to be some people who think it's a reasonable trade-off. What's the difference between an hour commute and an hour and 15 minute commute? Why shouldn't I trade 10 hours of my life every month for a larger house?

A lot of European countries have greenbelts around their cities where you aren't allowed to do a lot of development. It prevents things like the US suburbs which initially were thought of as 5-10 miles outside the city and now often go all the way to the next city creating a giant area that people commute from.

But these suburbs aren't the problem. The thing is that the suburbs then meld into really rural areas - but those really rural areas aren't that far from the suburbs that rich people live in and commute to the city from and those suburbs have big-box stores like Walmart and Target and they have high speed internet. If you live in a rural area that's 5 miles from such a suburb, you think "I'm not in the middle of nowhere! I'm just 5 miles from this place that has a Walmart and high speed internet and a supermarket!" If you're 5 miles outside a city in Europe, you're in farmland - but very often the houses all seem to be on one main road even through that farmland rather than up winding roads that lead nowhere (other than a few people's houses).

In the US, because there's this gradual drop-off in density, there can be this "why not just a little more" mentality. "Why not just a little farther out to get a tiny bit more land? It's working for the suburb next door that's just a tiny bit denser."

And a lot of Americans want to live in a rural area with acres of land, but in a commuting way. US policy often supports this choice - fuel prices, road subsidies, same-price delivery by the postal service, and billions spent trying to give them modern communications choices. That last one is key for this. The US is offering billions for rural internet and Starlink is going after that money.

Starlink is partly happening because the US government put a large amount of money available to anyone creating rural broadband options. The US Postal Service makes sure that rural areas can still get their deliveries.

I think "how far outside the urban area" is a hard question to answer because it's hard to answer where the urban area is in the US. The issue is that there's a lot of people that live in pretty rural areas in the US. Amazon and other deliveries are available. LTE and often even 5G is available, though often not with enough bandwidth at the moment to supply home internet (though companies are looking to change that). A lot of places with low density have fine wired internet. But when there isn't a clear demarcation of urban vs rural, there's still going to be a place where certain things stop, but people are going to wonder about the cut-off: I'm just outside the place that has broadband and it's only 15% less dense here.

I think that's the big thing. You might be 50 or 100 miles outside the city, but the gradual reduction in density while still being surrounded by non-farmers can make you feel like you're still a part of non-rural life while your neighbors and shops get farther and farther apart. Good wired home internet usually extends well away from cities in terms of miles (though often with annoying monopolies), but people really spread themselves out in the US.

Re:I took down my Starlink dish (but haven't cancelled) by BenjiWiebe on Thursday February 03, 2022 @08:35PM (#30201693)
No Amazon doesn't deliver in rural areas (central Kansas, USA, anyways), if you mean Amazon trucks/drivers. However we can still get Amazon packages just fine via UPS, FedEx, or the US postal service.

Actually I've only seen an Amazon delivery vehicle one or two times...