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Re:Please make a dumb car by dntrkv on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:00PM (#30151432)
> these unwanted smart features

Only within the niche HN-type tech crowd. Most people outside of this group want these features, even other techies, including myself.

It's the same discussion on any thread involving smart devices. People want this stuff, that's why there have been over 200M standalone smart speakers sold.

As far as why these things get bundled, that’s just how auto manufacturing works. Every unique configuration costs an additional overhead to the OEM. Bundling allows them to reduce this overhead.

Re:Please make a dumb car by prova_modena on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:14PM (#30151679)
I'm going to push back on this statement, as I spend my day-to-day more immersed in the non-techy car world than in the HN tech world. I see a lot of frustration with new tech features among car reviewers and enthusiasts. You can read almost any car-related social media forums and see ire directed at stuff like complicated touchscreen-driven interfaces and flaky emergency braking systems. I also know many older folks who simply ignore and avoid all these tech features that now come standard on luxury vehicles. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I don't think there's widespread acceptance of this stuff as you imply.
Re:Please make a dumb car by leetcrew on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:39PM (#30152118)
the world of car reviewers and enthusiasts is also a bubble that's pretty far removed from what typical car owners care about. I care about hard buttons, analog tachs, manual transmissions, etc., but most people I know really don't. they are somewhere between complete apathy and genuine appreciation for all the new tech features. mainly they just want some form of awd crossover that makes them feel safe.
Re:Please make a dumb car by sklargh on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:32PM (#30153009)
There are a fair number of reviewers out there (Catchpole, Savagegeese) who are starting to savage some of this stuff. Physical buttons are a safety feature.
Re:Please make a dumb car by karaterobot on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:44PM (#30153204)
The only data I have is anecdotal, but I ask people about this all the time. Some people seem to like the idea of an infotainment system, or rely on it for car trips with kids, but I have not heard any drivers who prefer touchscreens to physical controls.

I know that I, personally, love having a backup camera, but don't need or a screen for anything else, and would prefer physical controls for most things. Unfortunately that's not an option in most vehicles, so I am kind of coming to the conclusion that my next car will be an older model that's "dumb", since this is an overall better experience.

I don't think you could use the number of sales of cars with this kind of UI as evidence that people like it, since (the article mentions this) car manufacturers want to put it everywhere, regardless of popularity. It's got so many benefits from their side. It's not that I think they forced it on people, I think it was originally a cool novelty that people were excited about. But, after the novelty wore off, and a lot of people stopped wanting it in their cars, the industry had so fully committed to it that people just don't have the option to do without it these days.

Re:Please make a dumb car by lariati on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:11AM (#30177749)
Totally agree. A backup camera actually has utility. I like the blind spot warning system quite a bit too.

Most everything else is just technological kitsch. This isn't that new though.

Stereo systems have had equalizers forever even though almost everyone is just going to make already mastered audio sound worse by filtering it. That is not the point really of an equalizer. It is just to have a series of useless controls that will never be used but looks cool when you first see it. Pure technological kitsch.

Re:Please make a dumb car by bonestamp2 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:32PM (#30153001)
I do like bluetooth, power seat memory, 360 cameras, etc. But please, for the love of usability, don't bury all of the HVAC and Audio controls in a touchscreen menu. I want real knobs and buttons for all of that stuff. Even Volvo, a company focused on safety, moved nearly all of the HVAC controls to their touchscreen.
Re:Please make a dumb car by kspacewalk2 on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:27PM (#30153797)
Nah. Most non-techies I've talked to about this are very frustrated with the move to touch screens and "smart" features they never use. This is particularly true, basically universal, among people over 50.
Re:Please make a dumb car by klyrs on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:59PM (#30154242)
As a techie, I hate touch screens replacing what should be tactile buttons/knobs/switches that can be used without taking my eyes off the road. I don't mind them for a nav system. But, in many cars, they've stripped the radio and A/C controls and put them behind menus in a touch screen which has a dozen other screens that I never use. I don't care about all that garbage. I need to be able to adjust the A/C and the radio without taking my eyes off the road. And I don't need a default-always-bright screen in the cabin messing up my night vision. I was glad to find that setting buried in a menu somewhere, but holy crap.
Re:Please make a dumb car by adamrezich on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:29PM (#30151947)
my dad has been trading his truck in every few years for as long as I've been alive. every time he would get new bells and whistles to play around with and it made him happy. his last truck trade-in, two years ago, was miserable. the new Ford truck had all kinds of shit he'd never use like a wi-fi hotspot and such, but with all these new doodads came more points of failure—he took it to the shop to get something fixed multiple times per week for a few weeks before selling the truck and getting a more simple & reliable SUV instead.

people want fancy bells & whistles in their vehicles right up until it makes them a maintenance nightmare—you want your car to just work, like they largely used to.

Re:Please make a dumb car by sho_hn on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:11PM (#30151631)
I'm always surprised how defeatist and negative the tech community's attitude towards computerized UX in cars is. Often the opinions are simplistic and dismissive instead of zooming into the details. It's similar to when onscreen keyboards in phones where "obviously never going to work" when now, most people probably wouldn't want to give up the screen real estate for a hardware keyboard, except even more one-note.

I find it much more true that most car software simply isn't very good yet on average. Let's say most existing implementations of touch UIs in cars don't add value and are cumbersome to use, for example - but that just means they're individually badly realized, not that it's not worth trying. And in reality, it's also a much more nuanced "depending on the use case and the situation" or "impacted by bad performance".

There are quality differences out there. And there's plenty of use cases in cars that benefit from a thorough software approach. This is an area with interesting problems to solve and plenty of innovation left to happen, and where hard and good work makes a mark.

Re:Please make a dumb car by bonestamp2 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:41PM (#30153161)
The big difference between cars and smartphones is that you can focus all of your attention on your smartphone screen to use it. That's not true for the driver of an automobile.

The best automobile interfaces use knobs of different sizes and with different textures so that you can find them without looking. Buttons should be arranged in rows, so they are easy to find with a short look. Extremely common buttons should be located on the steering wheel. Etc.

Until screens can offer some kind of dynamic tactile experience, where you can feel what you're about to control, they can't be better than real tactile buttons and knobs.

Don't get me wrong, I love a big screen in my car for advanced features (360 camera, vehicle settings, navigation, music, etc). But the basics need to be tactile.

Re:Please make a dumb car by sho_hn on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:06PM (#30153511)
That's kind of what I mean: The discussion always starts and too often ends there. A couple of thoughts:

- Already in the pre-touchscreen, button-dominated area, plenty of more complicated use cases had terrible UX, and in many cases touchscreens have made them much easier. For example, do you remember how difficult it often was to program radio presets in 80s head-units? There were a lot of real clunkers there.

- There's plenty of newer use cases that would be hard or impossible to make easy with traditional hardware button UX, such as route and EV charge planning.

- Good software offers many possibilities to avoid interactions altogether, or make them single-step instead of multi-step. A good screen-based system will now often suggest interactions pro-actively and situationally at the top-level of the system and reduce interaction to a single multi-modal (touch/gesture/speech) confirmation on what used to be multi-step processes.

- Screens can offer tactile experiences - most recently with the introduction of screens that can do permanent haptic feedback via electrostatic friction coefficient modulation, emulating different surface feels as the finger moves.

- You already mentioned features such as 360 degree cameras: If nothing else, screens are great for showing information. Interactions aside, this alone has a lot of legs left and there's absolutely quality differences between good and bad implementations.

- There's absolutely nothing wrong with a good physical button (on the contrary - few things are more satisfying than a good, solid, weighty button) and having both for use in the appropriate situation. It doesn't mean there's no possible benefits from further investment into good car software.

I feel a lot of this is rooted in first-hand experience with bad systems - which I agree are plentiful, and just as awful as a bad, clunky, unrefined phone onscreen keyboard. Dare to imagine a good one.

Working on car systems means getting to own the form factor and the entire surroundings of a user, much more than working on software targeting rarely-changing phone and PC devices. It's an open field for software and hardware innovation and deserves a little more professional excitement and ambition to do it well.

Re:Please make a dumb car by bonestamp2 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @02:37AM (#30159638)
I agree with some of that. The new HUMMER EV has some neat blended tactile/screen interactions where the button labels are on-screen above the buttons. That in itself is not new, but the way that some features work is really slick, such as sub-menu options replacing the functionality of adjacent buttons when appropriate.

I wouldn't rule out that tactile HVAC and Audio controls are always better than a touchscreen, but I have trouble seeing the benefit for some of those basic controls. I mean, let's take the volume control for example. It's a very simple linear concept, there are no branches in the options for volume. There are no sub-menus -- you either want it higher or lower. You always want that control in the same spot so it's easy to find and you always want it available so you can use it at any time. For those reasons, I have trouble seeing what a touchscreen can add to that particular parameter. A knob seems better suited by nearly every metric.

Touchscreens on the other hand, are great for controlling more complex parameters. Even a temperature control, while similar to volume, is actually more complex because the change is not immediate. You're setting a parameter that will be true in the future, and that is something where a dynamic display can be beneficial. That said, you still generally want that control to be in the same spot and always available so it's not an obvious win for touchscreens.

Re:Please make a dumb car by bahmboo on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:39PM (#30153963)
I think that’s the point and also what sho_hn is saying. There’s nothing inherently wrong with screens and touch controls it’s that the car companies have done a truly terrible job in implementation. We have lots of tech including haptics and other feedback to make these interfaces work far better for humans that isn’t being taken advantage of. On the other hand a great counterpoint is the story of the Mac Touch Bar. (I’m a software person who also works on cars)
Re:Please make a dumb car by chucksta on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:29PM (#30151954)
Then they are charging their buyers 30k to beta test, and leaving buyers with no other option, which, I don't think most people are comfortable with. I think it's easily identifiable to the HN crowd, because most readers are very familiar with this process and the discomfort it can cause.

Then you add on the argument of what they are doing with the information, and if they can be trusted..

Re:Please make a dumb car by everdrive on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:31PM (#30153845)
> It's similar to when onscreen keyboards in phones where "obviously never going to work" when now, most people probably wouldn't want to give up the screen real estate for a hardware keyboard, except even more one-note.

I absolutely hate my screens keyboard, and wish I could just buy a phone with a real physical keyboard. I get so angry trying to use this thing. It’s far less useful than a regular keyboard.

Re:Please make a dumb car by RunSet on Monday January 31, 2022 @08:29PM (#30157478)
A keyboard that can snitch on you is a privacy invader's wet dream.
Re:Please make a dumb car by mavhc on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:11PM (#30152657)
The problem is hardware people can't write software, nor can they put in decent hardware so the software is fast. Nor make it secure.

That's why people buy Teslas, they're a software company that makes hardware on the side. And participates in hacker challenges, offering cars to the winners.

No one actually wants cars with no computers, they just think they do because they don't realise how much computers do, like reduce the amount of wires by 10x, and output error messages on the level of a crappy microcontroller instead of maybe a flashing light if you're lucky

Re:Please make a dumb car by throwawayboise on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:33PM (#30153023)
No, I really want a car with no computers. I want analog gauges, a real gear selector lever, and switches and knobs for other accessories. A tactile environment that doesn't demand my visual focus to use is what I want. I have no need for a computer in my car, and to the extent I do, my phone is perfectly capable.
Re:Please make a dumb car by mavhc on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @08:04AM (#30161877)
No engine control, no brake control, no airbags, no power steering, no engine starter, no automatic windows, no intermittent wipers, no central locking, no alarm system, no automatic lights
Re:Please make a dumb car by hilbert42 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @03:29PM (#30168784)
- Engine control - unnecessary, cars ran for 100 years without it.

- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.

- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.

- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrics at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?

- Engine starter? Cars have starter motors since just after the hand crank ers, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.

- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him to isolate them so they only worked on their individual switches.

- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.

- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa.

- Where I live alarm systems are likely to get you a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.

- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. (It seems to me that the designers of these systems never anticipate what we drivers actually need. Perhaps they only test them in the most tame and predictable environments.)

All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes the car less reliable and more expensive to buy and fix. Moreover, they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles anf of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner that we could do with a more traditional car, often we could be stranded for days whilst waiting a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. What's more that's hellishly expensive.

You people are just gadget mad.

Re:Please make a dumb car by mavhc on Thursday February 03, 2022 @11:44AM (#30194759)
Engines that massively polluted did. Brakes without traction control are worse Airbags without computers go off too often Power steering driven by a pump and a belt was very inefficient, more fuel wasted Weirdly you don't hear alarms going off much now, wonder if they're smarter somehow.... Cars are much more reliable these days

"in the 1960s and 1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km), but due to manufacturing improvements in the 2000s, such as tighter tolerances and better anti-corrosion coatings, the typical car lasts closer to 200,000 miles (320,000 km)"

Not sure why you think a load of extra moving parts is going to be more reliable than some solid state electronics.

Re:Please make a dumb car by hilbert42 on Thursday February 03, 2022 @12:51PM (#30195885)
"Not sure why you think a load of extra moving parts is going to be more reliable than some solid state electronics.“

Because cars can go anywhere including right outside tow truck range especially where I live. Here, being rescued can be days away. Then there's the adverse conditions, temperatures well in excess of 40° C and from my bitter experience, the electronics fail much more frequently under these harsh conditions than do the mechanics.

Then there's the issue of make-do. When one is hundreds of miles from anywhere, one can often improvise a mechanical repair whereas it's nigh on impossible to quickly sort out an electronics problem (unless it's trivial).

I recall being in a convoy of four cars in central Australia when the computer failed in the one and only Volvo in the group. What an unholy mess that was. None of us could fix it.

Note, everyone in the convoy was skilled in electronics (we were all radio amateurs on a field trip) and almost everyone had a full-time professional job in electronics. We even had lots of electronics test equipment as well as various electronic components with us - semiconductors, resistors, capacitors etc., as they were to service our HF transceivers when they failed.

That's just one instance albeit one of the worst cases.

My car chucked a universal joint on the same trip and although very inconvenient, we fixed it on the spot. Similar repairs were made on the spot when my petrol pump was ripped clean off the bottom of my car by huge ruts in the road.

From what you've said, I'd guess you live in a temperate climate in the suburbs of a city and only a few kilometers from a service garage.

The fact is, electronics and harsh environmental conditions (high thermal cycling) are not good bedfellows. Moreover, most electronics faults are thermally related (caused by thermal stress). I know firsthand as I ran the electronics department of a large corporation for years, before that I worked in the prototyping (design) department of a large US corporation designing professional electronic (not domestic stuff).

First rule of design: 'keep it simple stupid'.

__

Edit: "1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km)."

Uh? When I was younger all I could afford were cars with over 150k on the clock - and that's miles not kms - and I usually drove them to about 300k. The usual reason for getting rid of them was was rust - not because of mechanical problems. Sure, there were 'junk' cars around but you'd have to be mad to buy one.

One final point, around the time the Volvo broke down I was averaging 44,000 miles per year (~70,000 km/yr).

Re:Please make a dumb car by mavhc on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:00AM (#30204429)
Ah, you are the 0.0001%, have to build your own cars then, can't be that hard.

As for typical cars, that's why it's bad to base your theories on personal experience.

Should the computers and software be open and fixable though? Yes

Re:Please make a dumb car by hilbert42 on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @03:40PM (#30168909)
- Engine control - unnecessary, cars ran for 100 years without it.

- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.

- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.

- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrical stuff at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?

- Engine starter? Cars have had starter motors since just after the hand crank era, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.

- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him isolate them so they only worked on their own individual switches.

- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.

- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa. It's a nightmare, any attempt to properly lock the car fails.

- Where I live alarm system are likely to get a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but rather from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.

- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. The people who design and program their operation clearly don't use them except in the most tame surroundings.

All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes car less reliable and more expensive to both purchase and fix - and they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner as we could do with a more traditional car. Often we could be stranded for days whilst we waited for a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. Moreover, that's hellishly expensive.

You people are just gadget mad.

Re:Please make a dumb car by wolverine876 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:26PM (#30152900)
> Most people outside of this group want these features

Most people have little idea what features they have, besides the obvious ones. Read through some of the features listed for a car - some aren't even explained.