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Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by gen220 on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:17PM (#30128824)
Question for the more EV knowledgeable people out there.

Is there anybody pursuing the idea of charging stations where one swaps your EV’s battery for a fully charged one, and pays a fee proportional to how expensive it was to charge that battery at the local electricity rate?

Specifically, what are the barriers? Legal? Technical? Patent-related? Capital? Or is it not worth investing in this vision, because there’s reason to believe we’ll reach ubiquitous availability of charge stations with <5 minute charge times for a 350 mile range (i.e. equivalent to a full tank fill-up at a gas station) in the not distant future?

To understand the use case better, we own a car and only use it to “get away” (i.e. 200-600 miles over the course of a day into somewhat remote locales). We’d love to have an EV, but the idea of pausing to take a long charging break in the middle of an already long drive is very unappealing.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by gregmac on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:41PM (#30129038)
One of the issues is the battery is the heaviest part of the car, and tend to be pretty large. Most EVs today are basically built around the battery, using it as a foundation that everything else attaches to.

Making it replaceable means sacrificing range, because the battery must be smaller and there's more weight for a frame to hold the battery pack(s).

This is in addition to the more practical problems such as standardizing packs, network of swap stations, ownership of the batteries. If the packs are big you need a machine at every station (which can break), but if they're small enough for a driver to swap you sacrifice even more range and increase other potential problems like theft.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by djaychela on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:43PM (#30129057)
This is already a thing. I don't know how widespread it is, but take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by visarga on Saturday January 29, 2022 @03:13PM (#30129920)
Battery swap is sweet but mobile charging stations coming on demand using a phone app and charging your car as it is parked on the street - that's a new and interesting idea for me. You could call one overnight and have your car ready next day, even in a place without fixed charging stations.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by a9dhalaan on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:20PM (#30128849)
The battery is probably the singular most expensive component in an EV Vehicle. And batteries degrade with time and are in different states. If someone comes in with a batter that's only half working, then swaps it for a fully working one? or One that comes to the station with a fully working one and swaps it for a half working one?

Batteries would need to be a communal resource - with them being expensive i don't see it happening. Batteries need to be cheap for companies and people to take the risk of swapping their battery with a random one.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by ajuc on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:25PM (#30128895)
> companies and people to take the risk of swapping their battery with a random one.

What if you don't own the batteries, just buy the car without a battery and sign a contract for X years and $Y that you will get the battery replaced on each station?

> with them being expensive i don't see it happening

People rent cars that are more expansive than batteries.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by lostdog on Saturday January 29, 2022 @02:59PM (#30129806)
Obviously we should just swap the entire car. It would be like with horses, where you could swap for a fresh one to speed up a long ride.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by martro on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:33PM (#30128971)
There is alliance of big motorcycle producers (Honda, KTM, Piaggio, and Yamaha) to standardise batteries, probably aimed to be used in scooters:

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-news/swappable-e...

Edit: added brands

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by iamben on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:26PM (#30128898)
Similarly, EVs feel incredibly impractical for cramped city life. If you're living in a small London flat with no garage, parking etc. (hey!), the whole where and how are you going to keep something charged is very real. I'm completely unsure how that's meant to be solved in a real and practical long term way.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by dghlsakjg on Saturday January 29, 2022 @02:08PM (#30129363)
I don’t know about in London, but here in Canada a lot of businesses like grocery stores and movie theatres are realizing that charging stations are great for business.

If you have a car in the city, you probably only need to charge once a week depending on usage, is it really that outlandish to think that in an entire week you won’t take your car somewhere with a charger nearby? Besides that, you can slow charge off mains voltage using an extension cord in many cars.

We have wired every room in every building in every city across most of the globe to have electricity. I really don’t think it’s much of a stretch to run some extra wires to the curb as ecar adoption rises. The current system of moving billions of gallons of highly explosive liquids to custom built dispensing facilities placed every few kms on valuable real estate is far less practical when you think about it.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by iamben on Saturday January 29, 2022 @02:24PM (#30129514)
> I really don’t think it’s much of a stretch to run some extra wires to the curb as ecar adoption rises.

My flat is about ~50m from the road and 3 floors up. I absolutely get what you're saying, but charging from a cable inside the building isn't practical for anyone in this block (or many of the blocks nearby).

Could agree more with regards to the explosive liquids - but you can be in and out of a petrol station in ~5 minutes. I may only need to charge once a week, but it still requires my car to be somewhere with a charging point for an hour (or whatever) a week.

FWIW, I don't have an answer. I just don't think we're there (or close) yet. I suspect EV adoption will start outsides the cities and spread in.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by dghlsakjg on Saturday January 29, 2022 @03:23PM (#30130021)
The running the cable out to the curb was more meant as a municipal or collective effort. I don't think that running a cord from your window to your car is practical. More that the infrastructure to put a few charging stations on every block is already existent in every first world town and city.

A government will instantly approve of a plan to install dozens of parking meters per block at a cost of thousands and thousands, and then employ an entire department to wander the city and enforce the rules. It really can't be that much harder to make it so that some of those meters also work as a charging station.

I imagine as battery and charging tech progresses, the difference between getting petrol and charging a car will narrow to the point that it really doesn't matter. e.g. For the better part of a decade Tesla had been able to charge to 80% in ~30 min. That's more than enough for the average city dweller to get their shopping done. This is one area where I think techno-optimism is extremely warranted.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by iamben on Saturday January 29, 2022 @03:33PM (#30130111)
Yeah, I don't think we're disagreeing which each other.

I'd assume eventually it will work exactly like you suggest - I just think we're very far from it right now. I see it very much chicken and egg - trying to encourage your local council to put charging points every 3 or 4 spaces on every street is going to be next to impossible when there's just not enough EVs; too much hassle/uncertainty to own an EV in the middle of a city if you have to park it on the street (and your charge options are super limited).

That said, I'm sure it'll change and change will come quicker as more people in the suburbs (with the space to charge at home) buy.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by TheDudeMan on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:43PM (#30129063)
Streetside charging stations? They exist.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by leoedin on Saturday January 29, 2022 @02:30PM (#30129564)
Long term this is probably the solution. Sort term though - the ratio of cars to street side charging is about 50 to 1 right now. Even if we put a charging socket in every existing lamppost we'd still only be at about 10:1. We basically need to dig up the streets of entire cities and lay additional high voltage cables and a charging point at every parking space. There doesn't seem to be any desire to do that right now.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by iamben on Saturday January 29, 2022 @02:28PM (#30129548)
You're right. I've just had a google and looked on https://www.zap-map.com/ - there's not enough though.

But I stand by my original point - it's hard enough to find somewhere to park, never mind the parking spot next to the charger.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by fuzzy2 on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:24PM (#30128876)
It’s available in China today. I think I read somewhere the Chinese government will also enforce interoperability or something like that.

There was an Israeli company in the past, Better Place. It failed because car makers didn’t participate. But that was almost 10 years ago, so EV adoption was way lower.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by SuoDuanDao on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:29PM (#30128931)
I heard of an Israeli startup working on that, not sure what happened with it. More moving parts around delicate electronics probably make for a challenging combination, I'm guessing the biggest challenges are technical.
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by wolf550e on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:44PM (#30129086)
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by aaronblohowiak on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:42PM (#30129047)
Driving 200 miles is doable today. 600, I definitely need to stop, stretch legs and eat. Sfbay to az and and I stopped more frequently than “required” just to get a break from the road. I’m middle aged though so ymmv
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by dghlsakjg on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:57PM (#30129235)
When I was in college, and much more willing to suffer, it was 335 miles from home to school, and took 5.5 hours driving. I could do that without stopping, though normally would stop at least once for snacks/bathroom. Now I’m more likely to stop two or three times on a trip that long.

Even now on a mountain west traffic-free interstate I don’t really count on going more than 500 miles in a day. And that includes a meal break.

Both of these use cases sound like they would be very minimally disrupted by planning my stops around a charging break.

I think that range anxiety is largely overblown for a huge majority of use cases.

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by cronix on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:43PM (#30129072)
Nio is doing it in China. Here's the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvMr42VnFyo
Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by otterley on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:23PM (#30128862)
Tesla and Elon Musk presented a demo of just that over 8 (!) years ago and then ... nothing.

https://youtu.be/H5V0vL3nnHY

Re:One gemini battery nearly doubles Tesla Model S range by gen220 on Saturday January 29, 2022 @01:31PM (#30128947)
I’ve tried thinking about this from Tesla and the auto manufacturer’s point of view.

I think, while battery technology is rapidly evolving, the incentives of EV manufacturers is not to create “open interfaces”, but instead to integrate the battery into the hardware as much as possible. This gets better performance but also creates lock in.

In short, my theory is that until there’s a “battery company” ecosystem that sells up to auto manufacturers, this dream of swap stations will not materialize. Barring some regulation, I guess.