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Re:The case against masks at school by throwaway22032 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#30102938)
The case against masks is quite trivial and generalizable across most industries.

Today, a teacher now has two realistic options:

a) self-isolate indefinitely, either teaching remotely or quitting their job

b) contract coronavirus at some point

Given that, masks are an irrelevance. A teacher who is clinically vulnerable and unwilling to roll the dice is left only with the option to quit their job, regardless of whether masks are used, or windows are left open, or whatever else.

Coronavirus is too contagious for any sort of avoidance strategy to actually work. It's not like, say, cooking chicken, in which you can basically solve food poisoning.

Re:The case against masks at school by nkrisc on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:14PM (#30103159)
The point of masking and being cautious at this point is not to avoid ever catching COVID, because it seems certain now that everyone will catch it at some point. The point is to be the last person to catch it when hospitals are at normal capacity and everything else is back to normal, just in case you happen to have a very poor reaction to it.

It also just sounds kind of miserable. I also avoid catching the flu as much as possible. And if I ever go back to commuting by train, I’ll probably wear masks on the train too. I used to get colds all the time just from riding a completely packed train with sick people coughing and sneezing all over.

Re:The case against masks at school by DeWilde on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:25PM (#30103323)
Sterilizing your environment might be actually counterproductive for your immune system. A better strategy is eat more healthy and do moderate exercises, especially during flu season.

Eventually you will come in to contact with a virus, unless you plan to remove all contact with people and animals.

Re:The case against masks at school by graeme on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:58PM (#30105547)
This is unlikely to be true for respiratory viruses. Compared to an ancestral environment, we have:

* Much less contact with bacteria, dirt, allergens, due to sterilization

* Much more contact with respiratory viruses, due to enclosed spaces and modern energy efficiency standards

The whole overactive immune system/hygiene hypothesis is much more likely linked to lack of exposure to the first group of pathogens and substances.

Re:The case against masks at school by TameAntelope on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:42PM (#30105302)
But that's the trick; I can temporarily remove all contact with people and animals, while there's an active deadly virus killing astronomically large numbers of people in my country.

Will I need to be like this forever? No. Can I be like this for another year or so? Yes. It's highly unpleasant, but I (and some others like me) can actually isolate to the degree you jokingly suggest.

And why wouldn't I? Because of some primitive need for physical social interaction? Because of my weak will, my inability to place the needs of others before the totally optional needs of my own?

It just seems like anyone who can isolate and doesn't should have a hard time looking themselves in the mirror. It's obviously a different story for those who can't (most people, really).

Re:The case against masks at school by nradov on Thursday January 27, 2022 @04:31PM (#30107027)
Humans aren't robots. There's nothing primitive or optional about the need for physical social interaction. The people who disagree with you aren't wrong, they simply have different subjective priorities and values.
Re:The case against masks at school by TameAntelope on Thursday January 27, 2022 @06:27PM (#30108541)
There absolutely is something optional about the need (as in food, water) for physical social interaction, and the people who disagree with me are, factually, incorrect, know they're incorrect, and are acting selfishly at the cost of human lives.

Is it entirely pleasant? No. Is it temporary? Yes. You will survive without physically being around your buddies for a few years while a global fucking pandemic is resolved...

Re:The case against masks at school by DeWilde on Friday January 28, 2022 @06:59AM (#30113567)
That is one way of looking at it, the other is why force yourself to suffer if neither you nor anyone around you is at threat from the virus.

My threat model is different, everyone around me is healthy and young--with I myself being the only one with a chronic condition leaving me more vulnerable to Covid but still no that much--locking myself would be more unhealthy.

I don't see it as selfish, I'm not forcing anyone who is at risk to take the risks I am taking. They can stay at home for as long as they want, it is their life after all.

Re:The case against masks at school by nradov on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:15AM (#30116564)
There is a long religious tradition of suffering for the sake of faith in order to signal one's virtue or gain favor with a deity. While some pandemic control measures such as vaccination and mitigating co-morbid conditions are well supported by evidence based medicine, others have become kind of a weird secular religion largely detached from science.

I think some people just want to feel like they're in control. Surely if I dance in a circle while beating a drum the rains will come. Surely if I wear the sacred garment and perform the proper cleansing rituals the virus will see my piety and spare my life.

Re:The case against masks at school by nkrisc on Thursday January 27, 2022 @03:41PM (#30106303)
Who's talking about sterilizing their environment? Reply to wrong comment?

Of course I'll get sick, I've had the cold a few times this year already. That doesn't mean I try to get sick. Don't you wash your hands?

Wearing a mask on a crowded train with people sneezing and coughing seems pretty rational to me. I don't like catching a cold and will take reasonable measures to avoid it. Wearing a mask for an hour is hardly a big deal.

Re:The case against masks at school by spookthesunset on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:51PM (#30103667)
In this post-vaccine world we now live in, is slowing the spread of Covid really the absolute most important thing we all need to focus on?

Shouldn’t we move on at this point? What is the end goal here? Why are fully vaccinated adults continuing to freak out about Covid?

Re:The case against masks at school by davidw on Thursday January 27, 2022 @01:46PM (#30104443)
Once again: people are dying, right now, because they can't get access to health care, because hospitals in some places are overflowing with mostly unvaccinated people with COVID. This seems like a fairly location-specific issue, so I would expect that different places could do different things at different times.

We can and are focusing on other things, but hospital capacity is a good one to work on keeping down. Once that's down, I guess we see where we are and probably lift some restrictions.

Re:The case against masks at school by spookthesunset on Thursday January 27, 2022 @04:31PM (#30107024)
Where are people dying because they cannot get access to healthcare?
Re:The case against masks at school by ajford on Thursday January 27, 2022 @06:12PM (#30108406)
My large city in Texas is now down to 35 ICU beds across the entire city. That's how.

A friend's father-in-law had to drive 4hrs away to find a hospital with capacity for his cardiac surgery. That's how.

Re:The case against masks at school by spookthesunset on Thursday January 27, 2022 @06:55PM (#30108808)
And why is that the fault of the general public? These hospitals had 2 years to figure this out.
Re:The case against masks at school by veemjeem on Thursday January 27, 2022 @07:14PM (#30108982)
Why would it be the fault of hospitals? They have no incentive to construct more ICUs. A large percentage of covid patients entering the ICU for ventilation will die, and you can't collect on a dead patient. ICUs are a money hole -- they require specialized equipment, isolation construction, experienced medical team, etc. If a hospital is motivated by profit, they would construct as few ICUs as legally possible.
Re:The case against masks at school by spookthesunset on Thursday January 27, 2022 @11:23PM (#30110690)
It’s not my problem to fix hospitals. I shouldn’t be forced to wear some worthless mask because my lousy government can’t find a way to staff some kind of emergency Covid hospital. I only pissed away two years of my life waiting for them to do so… Time is up. Not my problem.
Re:The case against masks at school by davidw on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:51AM (#30117171)
Masks aren't useless, which is pretty obvious to anyone who thinks about the physics of an airborne pathogen for a few minutes.

Research demonstrates the same thing.

Why would anyone spend billions and billions on field hospitals when there's an easily available vaccine that prevents all of this? No one expected the uptake to be so bad. I mean even T**p is telling people to get their boosters.

Re:The case against masks at school by davidw on Thursday January 27, 2022 @04:35PM (#30107071)
https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-cris... - comes to mind. Here where I live in Oregon, during the Delta surge, people were waiting on "elective" surgeries for things like cancer treatment, and the hospital system was pretty clear that some ended up dying because the hospital was overloaded.
Re:The case against masks at school by nkrisc on Thursday January 27, 2022 @03:40PM (#30106275)
I'm not freaking out. I'm just trying to avoid getting myself and my family sick. Who likes being sick? I'm not living in some underground bunker, just taking basic precautions. It's the same reason I buckle my seatbelt: huge potential upside with negligible downside. So worst case scenario, I accidentally wore a mask I didn't need to wear. Oh no.

I have no reason to believe COIVD would be bad for me. But what if it is? Then I'd rather get sick when things have calmed down and hospitals are at normal capacity.

Re:The case against masks at school by rkk3 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:42PM (#30103535)
> The point of masking and being cautious at this point is not to avoid ever catching COVID, because it seems certain now that everyone will catch it at some point. The point is to be the last person to catch it

Great justification for making 5 year-olds wear masks for 6+ hours 5 days a week in school. This makes even more sense for the 5 year old kids that have ESL or Speech Pathology needs.

Re:The case against masks at school by rhino369 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:40PM (#30103513)
>The point is to be the last person to catch it when hospitals are at normal capacity and everything else is back to normal, just in case you happen to have a very poor reaction to it.

By that reasoning you would only wear masks when rates are very high. But a lot of schools require it when case rates are very low.

Re:The case against masks at school by zemvpferreira on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:02PM (#30102983)
I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus.
Re:The case against masks at school by mdorazio on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:12PM (#30103127)
You have yet to get coronavirus. There’s a pretty good chance that you will before the year is out. Omicron is extremely infectious even among the fully vaccinated. For example, among my friends group all of us are fully vaccinated and boosted, and so far 60% have gotten omicron despite wearing masks in public, washing hands frequently, etc. I expect further mutations in the future will probably happen and similarly reduce vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection.
Re:The case against masks at school by Jcampuzano2 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:46PM (#30105369)
Depending on what test people are getting, there may be a good portion of the population who have gotten Omicron but don't know it if they had very mild symptoms.

Plenty of us have off days, or may feel a little sick but don't assume it is Covid because of expecting extreme reactions even when it absolutely could be due to its symptoms overlapping others and many people being affected very little or even being asymptomatic.

Re:The case against masks at school by scatters on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:13PM (#30103138)
How do you know that? Unless you've been taking PCR tests at least weekly, it's more likely that you've had at least one asymptomatic infection.
Re:The case against masks at school by restingrobot on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:21PM (#30103264)
You will get COVID at some point, and it won't be because you were careful, you forgot to wear a mask, or you encountered unvaccinated/unmasked people. It will be because this virus is endemic and at some point everyone will get it.

The idea that somehow getting or not getting COVID is due to level of diligence is absurd on its face.

Re:The case against masks at school by zdragnar on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:21PM (#30103265)
I've been exposed to covid-positive people multiple times in my home (each time they found out they were positive after), no masking involved.

I get tested after each exposure and have yet to get it either.

Wearing masks and not catching covid is like wearing a bandana and not getting into a bike accident. It is an extremely contagious aerosolized virus that cloth masks simply aren't sufficient to stop.

Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more.

Re:The case against masks at school by Panther34543 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @01:15PM (#30103985)
> Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more.

There's a ton more. I now have tons of facial scars due to continuous breakouts over the past two years due to masks (and, yes, I've spent about $2k trying all sorts of silk and other supposedly "comfortable" masks).

Another thing that hasn't been talked about is cartilage deformities in young children due to the pressure of masks on developing features. My sister is a plastic surgeon and she has talked about this quite a bit, but it hasn't gotten much media attention. The pressure caused by elastic loops around the ear is quite harmful to the correct development of the ear by permanently modifying the cartilage of the concha in growing children[0].

She also mentioned that there may be affects on the shape of the nose if a mask is worn tight enough. A "celestial" nose is a nose shape with an upturned tip, stereotypically considered a sign of attractiveness in many cultures and a common feature of celebrities. It's the most requested shape for those interested in rhinoplasties.

Forcing young children to wear tight masks is quite literally deforming them.

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302120

Re:The case against masks at school by flycaliguy on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:11PM (#30104760)
My son wears a mask to kindergarten and I’ve been impressed by just how much it doesn’t seem to bother him or really matter at all. That link about deforming ears is interesting! It’s funny actually, my family tends to have stuck out “Obama ears” as well call them. Maybe this will create more “ear peers” with the potential to actually increase their hearing capabilities?
Re:The case against masks at school by skrbjc on Thursday January 27, 2022 @01:02PM (#30103813)
Funnily enough, I've seen many people riding bikes in the street with no helmet, but wearing a cloth mask.
Re:The case against masks at school by mosdave on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:24PM (#30104961)
Re:The case against masks at school by brimble on Thursday January 27, 2022 @01:56PM (#30104576)
I've found myself leaving them on on the walk back to the car a whole lot more now that it's Winter. Zero extra safety, but it keeps the face warm.
Re:The case against masks at school by shard on Thursday January 27, 2022 @03:01PM (#30105580)
I was already regularly wearing masks in the winter before the pandemic for the same reason, it kept my face nice and warm. Of course it was cloth masks, not N95. But I did wear N95 when the air quality was especially bad.
Re:The case against masks at school by throwaway22032 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:14PM (#30103143)
We're three months in to Omicron and only two years in, your situation right now is irrelevant.

The only way you're getting away with this is either by having some innate immunity, or by simply not noticing you've had it.

I wouldn't have realised if not for a friend saying "get a test", my only symptom was a purple line on a bit of paper. I actually felt better than normal because I went out drinking less.

Re:The case against masks at school by naasking on Thursday January 27, 2022 @03:57PM (#30106567)
> I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus.

Or you did and were asymptomatic. Something on the order of 70% of cases are largely asymptomatic IIRC. Unless you're claiming you got a PCR test every 21 days since the beginning of the pandemic?

Re:The case against masks at school by zemvpferreira on Thursday January 27, 2022 @04:12PM (#30106778)
I have not (only a few tests so far) but I'll do you one better. I have a few doctors friends who mix in society, wear masks everywhere, work in covid wards and have yet to contract coronavirus. They have to take an ungodly amount of PCRs.

Point is, a lot of people have been infected so far, but not all people.

Re:The case against masks at school by DeWilde on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:20PM (#30103262)
More likely, you've had contact with it but it did not cause any symptoms.

I don't think it is possible to avoid Coronavirus at this point. Unless someone had barricaded themselves in for the past 2 years they are likely to have had contact with the virus at this point.

Re:The case against masks at school by JasonFruit on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:11PM (#30103105)
c) get lucky
Re:The case against masks at school by mandmandam on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:14PM (#30103141)
Statistically speaking, isn't that just normal luck? Aren't 80% or so of infections mild to symptom free?
Re:The case against masks at school by wonderwonder on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:09PM (#30103077)
My kids school district did not require masks but highly recommended them. I figured I would send the kids to school with masks as I did not want to be disrespectful to their teachers who I assumed would be masked out of concern with being around so many children all day. None of their teachers wore masks, so that was the end of that. Essentially 15% of people including teachers and students wear masks. None of the adults (school staff) in their on campus after school program are masked either.
Re:The case against masks at school by jedberg on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:03PM (#30104667)
Do you know what the positivity rate is of your school population?

Our school requires masks at all times on campus, inside or outside, vaccinated or not (we're in California). However, prior to omicron we had 0 cases (school has about 500 people at it teachers+staff+kids). With Omicron we've only had 37 cases.

Re:The case against masks at school by wonderwonder on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:56PM (#30105517)
Official numbers say we have 10 active cases and 35 total for the year in my kids elementary school which has ~750 people on campus. My kid is one of those positive cases so he is quarantined for 10 days. Keeping my youngest home as well just to be sure he does not infect anyone, just assuming he is positive as well but no symptoms. They go to the same school. Prior to omicron I think they only had 5 positive cases at the school, no masks during delta either. At this point just assumed that if no one else is masking, there is no point and the kids are not going to keep them on if the teachers don't make them or wear them themselves. Assuming wife and I have it currently as well as we are not isolating from our kid but no symptoms. Wife and I are just working from home to avoid infecting anyone at work.
Re:The case against masks at school by zeku on Thursday January 27, 2022 @02:58PM (#30105549)
I still wear my mask to slow the transmission of covid so that less vulnerable people die, and so that our hospitals can stop being overrun.

I also personally think of this as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-p...

Masking may reduce the severity of your covid infection, which would be pretty sweet.

So it's not an all or nothing.

Re:The case against masks at school by damontal on Thursday January 27, 2022 @04:19PM (#30106856)
We are all getting coronavirus
Re:The case against masks at school by wrycoder on Thursday January 27, 2022 @01:45PM (#30104416)
C) Take a COVID therapeutic and get well.

If only the powers that be would take that approach.

Re:The case against masks at school by restingrobot on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:18PM (#30103222)
There is inconclusive evidence that children are vectors of transmission to teachers. At the very least it is the same as any public gathering. So your "options" would apply to every aspect of life, (Grocery store, restaurant, etc.)
Re:The case against masks at school by throwaway22032 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:21PM (#30103276)
Yes, hence my use of the term "generalizable".
Re:The case against masks at school by restingrobot on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:24PM (#30103318)
>generalizable across most industries.

I was trying to point out that it is not just industries, its literally life. This is anecdotal, but many of the teachers I personally know are anti-in person learning, but still willing to eat out a restaurant, which makes me question their true motives for remote learning.

Re:The case against masks at school by throwaway22032 on Thursday January 27, 2022 @12:29PM (#30103378)
Ah, yes, I agree.

My eyes tend to glaze over whenever I hear "because covid" now, it's devoid of meaning and simply means "I don't want to" most of the time.