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Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jandrewrogers on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:19AM (#30068402)
What many people miss is that it is not about the grape varietal, but the intersection of varietal and geography. Every famous wine region will produce poor wine from varietals not suited to that region, and varietals are sensitive to the local environment. This is where I think the Europeans get it right. They don't focus on the varietal, they produce a blend from varietals that make sense in the region they are grown, producing a wine with somewhat unique characteristics (modulo production skill).

Merlot can be the basis for excellent wine (see: Petrus). However, I think California generally produces mediocre merlot. California's strengths are Cabernet (Sauvignon and Franc) and Zinfandel. For Pinot Noir, there are a couple spots like the Russian River Valley that do a good job, but Oregon has a stronger claim.

In the US, you kind of need to know what varietals grow well in what regions. In Europe, they typically produce varietal blends that are optimized for the region where they are produced, but which have very different characteristics depending on the region. I prefer the European model of branding on the region rather than the varietal, because the wine experience is more consistent and predictable. You know it will usually be an appropriate varietal for the region in which it is produced. That is not always the case in the US; we seem to grow any varietal anywhere if we think we can sell it.

That said, if you want to look smart about wine without spending a ton of money, the best choice is something from a region relatively few people have heard of, and therefore inexpensive, that nonetheless produces brilliant wine. Sommeliers often appreciate people that can identify those hidden gems on the list because people trying to be flashy don't even recognize them. Of course, you learn this by drinking wine from literally everywhere, and especially places you've never heard of, until you form an opinion. Availability varies widely with geography but in 2021, with the globalization of wine, there is little reason to spend much more than $10-20 bottle (retail, not restaurant) for almost any style if you know your regions and quality is the sole objective (local availability notwithstanding).

But then, I'm just a random wine drinker on the Internet. :-)

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jhatax on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @03:16AM (#30069474)
You’re painting with a very broad brush regarding California wine. Some simple numbers:

- Napa & Sonoma counties collectively have 650+ wineries.

- Paso Robles and the extended SLO county (plus Santa Barbara) region have 500+ wineries.

Saying that just the Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc are standouts, the latter of which is rarely at 80+% because it is harder to tame in a bottle, by approximately 1150 wineries that produce all manner of Bourdeaux and Rhone varietals is quite reductive.

Oregon Pinots are good if that’s what you like: earthly, terroir-driven taste. California wines are fruitier, part of this is the fruit and the other is the limited use of whole cluster fermentation.

Washington is emerging as a fantastic wine producing state as well.

So, on balance, there is something for every palate produced by California wineries. Maybe even Washington producers. Oregon wineries are getting into Syrah and the darker reds as well.

I agree with your $10-20 range for a decent bottle of wine (retail). What I’d add to your statement is that you shouldn’t need to buy a bottle not produced in the USA if you live here. The locally made wine compares to international options, especially in the targeted price range ($10-20).

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by base698 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @08:48AM (#30071715)
In my experience northern California is fruitier. Paso is jammier, though I've not had that many. Santa Barbara area is starting to do some cabs just to north (Happy Canyon) in the hot area. They have less fruity wine the colder you get to the west.
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by MrGando on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:35AM (#30069209)
Love the comment! I honestly think California's most interesting wines being produced now are Syrah's. Crazy good stuff there made by the newer generations.

Agreed on Cabernet Sauvignon. Regarding Pinot Noir, there's just nothing in the US that compares to a good Burgundy, some things I think are interesting are Domaine De La Cote in California and Kelley Fox in Oregon though :)

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jhatax on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @03:19AM (#30069492)
Try wines from Paso when you can. They are available at the sub-25 price point at most places that sell wine (warehouse, grocery, et al), and you might appreciate the GSM and Syrahs from Paso. Same story in Washington; the strong heat in the growing areas leads to great tannic structure and complexity.

Cheers!

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by misiti3780 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:04PM (#30074372)
I agree, try Pax Syrah if you get a chance, it is the best one I have tasted:

https://www.paxwine.com/

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by MrGando on Sunday February 06, 2022 @03:54PM (#30236908)
I like Pax, if you can try the Syrah's from Jolie Laide... the Halcon Vineyard one is among the best Syrah I've tried in the US :)
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by ricardobayes on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @04:50AM (#30070087)
Random funfact: if you are drinking Californian wine, chances you are drinking Hungarian wine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoston_Haraszthy
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by dfxm12 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @09:12AM (#30071952)
That said, if you want to look smart about wine without spending a ton of money, the best choice is something from a region relatively few people have heard of, and therefore inexpensive, that nonetheless produces brilliant wine.

How is this possible in the Internet age? I mean, I've always liked Dolcetto d'Alba (I know, Piemonte is a well known region, but not for this wine), but in the 10s, there were a few popular articles talking about how it's such a great pizza & pasta wine, and all of a sudden, bottles were more expensive...

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jandrewrogers on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @01:34AM (#30082480)
Wine region popularity is substantially driven by marketing and fashion. The number of regions in the world that produce excellent wines are legion; most people have only heard or experienced the most famous and well-marketed. It is difficult to overstate just how expansive the wine producing world is, and most don't export much because there is no market for wines from non-trendy locales.

I have experienced wines I discovered when they were inexpensive become trendy and therefore expensive. I've always just moved on; you'll never run out of obscure wine-producing regions that produce excellent inexpensive wine. The largest practical limit is distribution, but wine has become much more global.

You will find a lot of good wine in countries you might not expect e.g. white wine in Mexico. Many countries that produce superior wine almost never export, such as Switzerland. There are excellent small appellations even in France with brilliant wine that everyone ignores because few people have ever heard of them, so it costs very little if you can find it. Smaller countries in Europe are always at a disadvantage regardless of their wine quality e.g. Portuguese and Spanish wine are very similar in quality and style but Spanish wine commands the higher price.

There isn't nearly as much information about wine on the Internet as you may hope. Absent a substantial marketing effort, it largely isn't discoverable virtually. Even in cases where countries like Uruguay attempt to market their wines, it has minimal visibility to the wine drinking world.

It is an inefficient market with incentives that don't necessarily ensure the best wines for the money are easy to find.

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jnsaff2 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @09:50AM (#30072345)
So funny story, a week ago my fiancee had a work trip to Serbia. There she discovered that the country produces sublime wine. Brought back a suitcase full of it and every one of them has been amazing.

Neither of us had heard anything about Serbian wines or that they had any wine production nor that it's really good.

So I'd say there are ton of interesting regions to be discovered.

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by wil421 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @10:44AM (#30073065)
At a past job I went to Serbia several times and the wine was fantastic. I took a pic of a few of the bottles but could never find them responsibly priced in the US.
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by rhino369 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @11:52AM (#30074164)
There are still biases against new world wines. But its really about finding a something you really like from a less known region. Everyone has preferences, so find one that matches yours.

That said its often hard to find those. I like red wines from the regions near Capetown, SA. You can get some of it in big wine stores, but its hard.

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by base698 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @08:46AM (#30071697)
> For Pinot Noir, there are a couple spots like the Russian River Valley that do a good job, but Oregon has a stronger claim.

What about the Pinots from "Sideways" in Santa Ynez area? Paul Lato, Sea Smoke (maybe played out) to name a couple.

Funny enough I'd been to Lompoc a half a dozen times before I realized it was the region from the movie.

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by bmm6o on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:56PM (#30075269)
I've been told that wine making in Temecula (inland SoCal) didn't really take off at first because they were growing varietals typical to France, and the results weren't too good. They eventually switched to varietals more typical of Italy (which better matches the local conditions) and found more success.
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by aishvar on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:50AM (#30068605)
Is there a list of what's generally considered the best region for each grape?
Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by zwaps on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:32AM (#30069187)
Not really, there's some basic information in what is popular - say Sauvignon Blanc in NZ or Zweigelt in Austria, but that doesn't mean these need to be the best regions in terms of taste. Generally, some grapes do better with sun and warmth, while others (like Pinot Noir or Riesling) do better in moderate climate.

Beyond that, I am not sure if one can trust a simple list. I think this is because region can be very narrowly defined - sometimes "side of this hill, vs. that side". Then, each year also produces different quality.

I think there are certain prototypes per region that you could learn about. But even that is a challenge. So for France, for example, the regions you want to learn don't stack hierarchically in a nice fashion (like you start with 4 broad regions and break them down). But it can be done. In realiy, however, different wines are made in each region (see "region" above) so you are not guaranteed to get something like the prototype, nor can you guarantee that the wines of a given year will be like the prototype at all. Another good example is Italy, which has fewer prototypical examples one might be able to learn. But then, Italy also has a great number of wine makers that do something very different, sometimes something better, so again it doesn't help you find a good wine.

Best bet is to pick a region and really get into it. Like, learning stuff about Bordeaux can keep you busy, but at least you'll have a solid idea. The wrong approach would be to do stuff like say: "oh Bordeaux has Merlot, while Germany has Pinot" which is sort of true in ratios of averages, but individually, and also generally, incredibly wrong.

I personally believe that identifying a good wine in all cases basically requires you to know about the wine maker and the year. I.e. - it's a full time job.

Re:A “Sideways” supply response in California winegrapes by jhatax on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @03:20AM (#30069503)
Simplest answer: the best region for a grape is the region from where you like wine made from that grape. :)