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Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by PragmaticPulp on Monday January 24, 2022 @05:54PM (#30065245)
FYI, in case you don’t have kids: A number of vaccines are already required for school children. If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all that the vaccine will get added to those lists.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by collias on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:12PM (#30065458)
Those vaccines are actually sterilizing/neutralizing, preventing infection for diseases that are significantly harmful for children.

The Covid-19 vaccines famously are not sterilizing, and Covid-19 itself does not pose any sort of significant risk to otherwise healthy children.

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Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by steelstraw on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:26PM (#30065614)
I'd encourage you to do some cursory risk benefit analysis before spreading baseless fear like this.

The flu is more dangerous to kids (see slide #17 here https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download) and it has "long" symptoms too. It's not unusual.

Driving them to and from school is 10x more dangerous.

An unvaccinated kid has risks lower than a vaccinated adult. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-i...

Besides, many (most?) kids have already had Covid anyway.

I'm tired of the fear mongering and acting as though Covid is the only risk in the real world. Or as though you're going to hide from it forever. It's endemic and we have the vaccines for those at risk. Go back to normal and quit pushing your neurosis on kids. Please. We've disrupted their lives far too much already.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by nradov on Monday January 24, 2022 @09:36PM (#30067191)
Besides the flu, RSV is also more dangerous than COVID-19 to children. But RSV had been around for a while so we just accept the risk instead of panicking about it.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2021/han00443.asp

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by BobbyJo on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:39PM (#30065741)
> Driving them to and from school is 20x more dangerous

Do you have data to back that up? Genuine question. A lot of people pull numbers out of thin air when the topic is touchy.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by bseidensticker on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:59PM (#30065933)
Those were certainly pulled out of thin air. All these numbers are for the US:

Approx 38k people killed in cars in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in..., lets assume the same for 2021 so 76k dead.

Approx 850k people killed by covid https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

So covid killed more than 10x as many Americans as cars did (not including pedestrians). That doesn't take into account age though. CDC shows only 727 dead in the 0-17 age range.

For cars, it seems that at least in 2006, about 2000-2500 children 16 and under were killed in cars: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

Seems like cars are a few times more deadly for kids than covid, but covid killed way more Americans of all ages. Not a great analysis, but it's as good a job as I'm going to do.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by s1artibartfast on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:27PM (#30066212)
so 5X more children die in car crashes and not 10X?
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by bseidensticker on Monday January 24, 2022 @10:51PM (#30067744)
Someone said that driving them to and from school is 20x more dangerous (and then edited their comment to say 10x instead of 20x). I was just casually looking up the stats for myself and thought I'd share.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by s1artibartfast on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @06:27PM (#30079619)
I see, thanks
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by kjeetgill on Monday January 24, 2022 @10:00PM (#30067361)
The 10x number was from a different poster than the one following up with the numbers that were asked for.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by s1artibartfast on Monday January 24, 2022 @10:09PM (#30067422)
It seemed like they were arguing against the accuracy of the estimate, but their math supports it. If you look at the totals, you get 5x and divided covid deaths by 2 years, you get 10x
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by collias on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:26PM (#30065618)
Sure, here's some research: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

As of last week, a total of 727 children 0-17 have died from Covid since the pandemic started, and that's including the children with comorbidities.

And some more: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-...

There is a real risk of myocarditis for children after receiving the vaccine. Many cases of this require a hospital visit.

There is a cost/benefit analysis on the vaccine for children that looks very different than the cost/benefit to adults. Where there is a risk, there should be a choice.

Regarding the effects of "long covid", it seems to be pure speculation. The data is changing on this all the time, and not enough time has passed since the beginning of the pandemic to really nail down long-term effects of infection.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by PragmaticPulp on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:47PM (#30065828)
> As of last week, a total of 727 children 0-17 have died from Covid since the pandemic started

Using death as the only negative outcome will produce completely incorrect conclusions.

We know the death rate is low for children, assuming prompt access to ICUs when necessary.

That doesn’t mean it’s harmless.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by collias on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:06PM (#30066001)
I wasn't implying that Covid is harmless, only that vaccinating children against it should be a choice given the data on risks/benefits we currently have.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by BobbyJo on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:40PM (#30065757)
> The data is changing on this all the time, and not enough time has passed since the beginning of the pandemic to really nail down long-term effects of infection.

This is a point in favor of vaccination no? Especially when the topic is children.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by collias on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:47PM (#30065829)
It's a neutral point. Neither the vaccine or the virus have been around long enough for long-term data.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by BobbyJo on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:54PM (#30065890)
I'd hardly consider 'we have no idea what the long term effects of this disease are' a neutral point. Would you rather catch the flu, or a new virus that has no symptoms and hasn't hurt anyone in the last 3 months since it showed up? If you had to think about that at all, then you have to admit a lack of long-term risk data is itself a risk when it comes to viruses.

The relative risk that the vaccine has some unknown long term side effect is far smaller than a virus, especially when you consider that the vaccines are composed of non-replicating parts of the virus.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by xienze on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:59PM (#30065934)
> but children are absolutely hospitalized and killed by this disease.

Same thing applies to the flu w.r.t. to children and yet it’s not mandated for kids. CDC says 188 kids died of the flu in 2019 [0], which is not nothing but apparently small enough that no one is terribly concerned about sending their kids to school or the possibility that less than 100% of children have the flu vaccine (link says only 21% were vaccinated). Also on that page, the H1N1 pandemic resulted in 358 child deaths. And again, no one was terribly concerned about children.

“Ah,” you’re thinking, “but what about the number of Covid deaths in children?” A link I found indicates about 700 deaths over two years [1]. So maybe a little worse than the H1N1 pandemic that no one lost their minds over w.r.t. to kids and schooling? That’s the reason this argument keeps playing out over and over again. We’re in some sort of weird reality were people don’t realize that a non-trivial number of kids die every single year from the flu and therefore set their baseline to how many kids can die from Covid and still consider schools “safe” to zero.

0: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatr...

1: https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/8361479002

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by BobbyJo on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:37PM (#30065730)
> any sort of significant risk to otherwise healthy children

He wasn't saying there was no danger (although he's implying it's small enough to be moot, which is subjective). Fundamentally, I think the argument most people are having here is 'what is the acceptable level of risk and what is the actual benefit, before vaccines should be required?"

This honestly seems to be the basis of a lot of hot-button issues (COVID, guns, voting, abortions), but somehow the conversations never play out that way. Risk is a continuum, and the benefits of different policies may or may not 'pay' enough out to any given individual.

All that being said, what is the relative risk to a healthy 5, 10 or 15 year old?

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by PragmaticPulp on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:50PM (#30065861)
> With all due respect - what on Earth are you talking about?

These are recycled anti-vax talking points. The “neutralizing vaccine” angle has spread like wildfire in the past couple of weeks as the anti-vax influencers pivoted to using that angle. I went from never hearing that phrase (outside of research papers) to seeing it everywhere almost overnight.

The (fallacious) argument is that because the COVID vaccine can’t completely prevent infection, it’s worthless.

This is obviously false as we know the vaccine drastically reduces disease severity.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by crackercrews on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:10PM (#30066030)
> The “neutralizing vaccine” angle has spread like wildfire in the past couple of weeks as the anti-vax influencers pivoted to using that angle.

President Biden and other key officials have said that if you get vaccinated you won't get COVID. Here's just one example from an AP fact check. This was not from when the vaccines were just out, either. He was saying this less than 6 months ago.

> President Joe Biden offered an absolute guarantee Wednesday that people who get their COVID-19 vaccines are completely protected from infection, sickness and death from the coronavirus. [1]

1: https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-01184362...

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by timr on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:07PM (#30065388)
> If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all that the vaccine will get added to those lists.

There's a huge difference. This vaccine has a miniscule benefit for kids. We've never before mandated a vaccine for children that didn't provide a sizable benefit to the child him or herself.

Mandatory vaccinations for school-age children exclusively target illnesses with high childhood morbidity/mortality: Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, DtP.

SARS-CoV2, thankfully, is safer than influenza for kids. As of right now, the CDC says that 727 kids have died in the US with Covid throughout the entire pandemic:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by Avshalom on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:14PM (#30065473)
I had to get tetanus and hep-b vaccines to go to school in Florida twenty years ago.

ETA: here's the current list of required vaccines in FL http://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunizat...

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by timr on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:31PM (#30065673)
Yes, and both of those make sense. Tetanus is incredibly common and kills many babies, even today:

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...

> Figure 1 shows the global age-sex distribution of tetanus mortality in 2015. Tetanus deaths were concentrated in neonates when they were compared with deaths in each of the other age categories

Hep B infection during childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in 95% of cases:

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/hepatitis-b

> Hepatitis B infection acquired in adulthood leads to chronic hepatitis in less than 5% of cases, whereas infection in infancy and early childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in about 95% of cases. This is the basis for strengthening and prioritizing infant and childhood vaccination.

In both cases, children are being vaccinated for their own direct benefit, not some vague, external benefit to others.

(Also, it's worth pointing out that we mandate these vaccinates for school-age children because that's the first time such a mandate can be enforced. Babies are supposed to be vaccinated for both within the first six months of life: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...)

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:21PM (#30065549)
The tetanus vaccine for children probably makes sense.

In recent years, tetanus has been fatal in approximately 11% of reported cases. Cases most likely to be fatal are those occurring in persons age 60 years or older and unvaccinated persons. In about 20% of tetanus deaths, no obvious pathology is identified and death is attributed to the direct effects of tetanus toxin.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html

I'd argue the heb-b vaccine is a good idea too.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by raxxorrax on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @09:20AM (#30072033)
Tetanus is on a completely different threat. It can be everywhere in the soil and infection can mean almost certain death, crippling disabilities should you survive. Every vaccine must be evaluated alone on its specific benefit.

As far as we know the protection doesn't even last a year, a tetanus vaccine might need refreshment after 10 years but would still offer some protection.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by tick_tock_tick on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:08PM (#30065410)
California has always been extremely generous with exemptions, part of why measles and whooping cough were/are making a comeback here, this seems to tighten some of that.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by drewda on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:23PM (#30065578)
After the big measles outbreak at Disneyland in 2014, California tightened school vaccination requirements: Senate Bill 277, passed in 2015, removed personal belief exemptions for mandated vaccinations. Senate Bill 276, passed in 2019, further tightened up what counts as a valid medical exemption.

Above details from this overview: https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/07/24/no-california-d...

I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by crackercrews on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:38PM (#30065735)
> I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children.

Do you think kids should be mandated to be vaccinated for a disease they've already had? What if that vaccine does not appear to prevent illness or spread? What if the vaccine does not have full FDA approval?

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by drewda on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:01PM (#30065956)
> Do you think kids should be mandated to be vaccinated for a disease they've already had?

This is not a new approach. California already mandates that schoolchildren get vaccinated for chicken pox. It's not sufficient to have gotten the disease: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/health/story/2019-...

I'm not going to argue about this so will leave your other questions unanswered. Take care.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by crackercrews on Monday January 24, 2022 @08:02PM (#30066498)
Not looking to argue, just wondering if someone could support a vaccine mandate under these circumstances. I understand if you don't want to say, or don't have reasons to support your feelings. It's a fraught topic!
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by moistly on Monday January 24, 2022 @10:45PM (#30067696)
OP quite clearly states that they “support a vaccine mandate under these circumstances” and has rightly decided to not engage in further bullshittery.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by e4e78a06 on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:22PM (#30065556)
Mostly because it has become politically expedient to tighten exemptions. In the past the demographic requesting exemptions was mostly liberal hipsters, so there were generous exemptions, but now that the Democratic party stands for COVID vaccination mandates the exemptions are being tightened.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by Cornelius267 on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:00PM (#30065947)
The post that you are replying to says that these exemptions were tightened years before Covid-19 existed.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by tomohawk on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:22PM (#30065557)
FYI, those other vaccines actually have benefits for those children. Requiring vaccination when there is almost unmeasurable benefit to the recipient is unethical. It's sad that kids have to bear the brunt of all the fear going on right now.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by D13Fd on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:49PM (#30065848)
The CDC says the unvaccinated are 5x more likely to get Omicron:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01/unvaccinated-5x-more...

Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread and protect people who are hurt more by the virus.

Getting vaccinated is far from the worst thing the government makes people do. The U.S. government still runs the military draft, and has forced unwilling people to go fight and die in miserable circumstances for a cause they think is unjust. By comparison, getting a vaccine to protect the community is small potatoes.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by peteradio on Monday January 24, 2022 @07:59PM (#30066473)
> Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread

Prove this first, then weigh the risk/benefits publicly.

> The U.S. government still runs the military draft,

The United States military has been all-volunteer since 1973, no?

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by khuey on Monday January 24, 2022 @09:03PM (#30066970)
> The United States military has been all-volunteer since 1973, no?

Young men still have to register just in case they change their mind.

Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by version_five on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:33PM (#30065688)
This is an important point I hadn't really considered. It's bad enough having vaccine mandates (I mean having to show proof of vaccine) targeting people going bars or wherever (I'm in Quebec, Canada and apparently now you have to show you're vaccinated to shop at the state run liquor store, that's literally just spite), but bringing kids into the fight is really inappropriate, both on the vaccine side and all the other theatre going on in schools right now. I hope we look back on this with shame and to the extent possible can hold those who have actively gotten us here accountable
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by sershe on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @11:47AM (#30074081)
The worst part about this in my view is that the fair pushback against this (the vaccine efficiency is low compared to these other vaccines, and the danger to children from COVID is non-existent) will be co-opted against other vaccines that actually matter.
Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by lr1970 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:25PM (#30074709)
> A number of vaccines are already required for school children.

To the best of my knowledge all the vaccines on the required list are fully FDA approved. COVID-19 one has a lesser "FDA emergency authorization".

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Re:California school kids must get Covid vaccine under new bill by PragmaticPulp on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:51PM (#30065864)
> Except that 1) these aren't vaccines,

Nope, they’re vaccines.

> 3) children rarely even show symptoms from SARS-CoV-2 infection

This is beyond false. I don’t know where you’re getting these talking points.