News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by cletus on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:07PM (#30050995)
The example is of course egregious ($600 for a software update for a wire that got wet, basically). I fully support being able to repair your own stuff but I have no idea how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services.

Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive). I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factors like normal batteries. I can't help but feel that if AA batteries were invented today there's no way there'd be a standard form factor.

But this issue is complicated. As much as first-party parts and accessories cost too much, there can be deadly consequences with shoddy third party products [1]:

> In July, a Chinese woman died after being electrocuted from a charging iPhone 5. Later that week, another man in China suffered a similar injury from a charging iPhone 4, leaving him comatose. In both cases, the victims were using an unofficial third-party adapter to charge their device.

So how do you guarantee something third-party will do what it claims to? If you use bad RAM chips in a Macbook, the consumer is going to blame Apple not whoever supplied cheap, shoddy parts (for the record, I hate soldered in RAM).

As an aside, I was unsurprised to see in this article this is a small farm. The harsh truth is that family farms and small farms in general are a dying way of life and just aren't competitive with industrial-scale agriculture. You can't fight the incoming tide forever.

[1]: https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/11/28/thai-man-dies-aft...

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by kube-system on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:42PM (#30051314)
> I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factors like normal batteries.

They largely do. For example, the famous 18650 which powers all kinds of devices from power banks to laptops to cars.

If what you’re referring to is their common inclusion into proprietary battery packs, there are some technical reasons for that difference, like cell balancing, safety protections, etc. While it could be possible to engineer some (but not all) of these concerns out of the equation, you’d end up with a more expensive larger and heavier product.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by 8bitsrule on Sunday January 23, 2022 @06:44PM (#30051907)
> how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services.

For starters, it's not aftermarket! since the tractor belongs to JD, and it is licensed to the customer, and it failed to work because a wire got wet (shitty design), and only JD can determine and repair it ... that should be JD's cost, not the owner's.

>harsh truth

A harsher one: JD has a monopoly and is using it to strangle its own small business customers. Feels good to see it get run past Sherman - better to see it get run over.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by dotancohen on Monday January 24, 2022 @03:46AM (#30054964)

  > that should be JD's cost, not the owner's.
Manufacturer warranty is limited, mostly in time. Even when some components are poorly designed. The Renault / Nissan CVT is a famous example of this: known problematic transmission that typically dies out of warranty. I could give you literally tens of examples off the top of my head in the consumer automotive industry alone.
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday January 23, 2022 @06:31PM (#30051787)
This has all been solved already. Cars.

I modded my car and it didn't void the warranty. I can goto the dealership, 3rd party, or repair it myself. I can swap out nearly everything for non OEM parts.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by shagie on Sunday January 23, 2022 @10:03PM (#30053234)
Cars aren't industrial equipment. A different set of laws and warranty repair laws are applied to each.

If tractors were able to be classified as cars for warranty and such - such that the people who make modifications to them are liable for damages caused by the device (rather than the manufacturer), there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

As it is, if you are able to modify the emissions controls for a tractor and the manufacturer doesn't try to make it impossible to do that, the EPA goes after the manufacturer instead of the owner or operator.

In the mean time, see if you can legally make any changes to your car's catalytic converter and replace it with a pipe.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday January 23, 2022 @10:45PM (#30053495)
> Cars aren't industrial equipment.

I'd argue they are industrial safety-critical equipment.

> In the mean time, see if you can legally make any changes to your car's catalytic converter and replace it with a pipe.

Nobody goes after Subaru when people run catless. This is a silly strawman.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by shagie on Sunday January 23, 2022 @11:00PM (#30053591)
Legally, cars are not industrial equipment. One of the key distinctions appears to be that a hobbyist can modify a car whereas a hobbyist isn't supposed to be modifying cranes, tractors, trains, or the like.

Exactly - the government doesn't go after Subaru when people remove their catalytic converter because the car isn't industrial equipment. The EPA does go after tractor manufacturers and distributors when it is possible to modify a tractor to remove its diesel particulate filters and similar.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/tractor-supply-company-inc-s...

https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/1998/June/281.html

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Monday January 24, 2022 @09:42AM (#30058128)
> The illegal vehicles had adjustable carburetors that were not described in their application for certification, were produced by a different manufacturer than the one specified in the application, were manufactured prior to the date of the certificate of conformity, had model names that were not identified on the certificate of conformity, or were significantly more powerful than described. The illegal engines were incorrectly certified as non-road engines rather than as recreational vehicles and some were significantly more powerful than described in the allegedly applicable certificate of conformity. The EPA and the U.S. Department of Justice also alleged that the emission control information labels on certain vehicles did not comply with federal regulations, and that Tractor Supply Company provided an incomplete and inaccurate response to EPA’s information request.

> According to the charges, the company's engine software controls the timing of fuel injection into the combustion chamber, causing the engine to emit excessive amounts of NOx while the truck is running on the open road. However, the company's engine software is designed in such a way so that these emission levels do not show up on the federal test.

What do any of these have to do with end users modifying their equipment?

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by bin_bash on Sunday January 23, 2022 @11:06PM (#30053624)
Well not if you live in California, then you need to buy OEM parts or they won't pass smog
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by erosenbe0 on Sunday January 23, 2022 @06:27PM (#30051757)
In the USA we have Underwriters Laboratories to certify for you if your electronic widget is up to safety standards. Look on some of your widgets and you will see a UL logo in a circle. There is also a way to check the authenticity. The federal government for example won't purchase various types of widgets unless they meet recognized standards.
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by rootsudo on Sunday January 23, 2022 @08:23PM (#30052556)
Why do we trust a private company to certify electronics?
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by the_pwner224 on Sunday January 23, 2022 @09:42PM (#30053102)
Because they have a long-held reputation for being good at certifying (and, more importantly, not certifying) electronics.
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by userbinator on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:34PM (#30051245)
So how do you guarantee something third-party will do what it claims to?

You don't. There's something called freedom and personal responsibility. Unfortunately the corporations and governments seem quite determined to take them away from us.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by AdamJacobMuller on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:36PM (#30051256)
> I have no idea how you regulate this

This is my concern too, but, I think way more broadly than you.

I love the idea of right to repair. I agree on a fundamental level, this is your device, you bought it, you own it, you should be able to do with it as you please.

What I don't agree with is creating additional regulatory or legislative burdens on companies. I have a number of concerns with doing so, but, philosophically I don't see it as the government's right to unduly interfere in apple (or samsung, or john deere's) right to sell me a product I want to buy.

More directly, I am worried about right to repair stifling innovation and competition. I could easily see a regulatory body require all phone's have user-replaceable batteries and that is not something which I fundamentally want in a phone. It has tradeoffs which I don't want to make.

That said, I think companies like Apple refusing to sell genuine replacement parts at any price is egregious.

However, I also think the government forcing private companies to disclose things like engineering or repair manuals which contain secret/trade information is equally egregious.

All of this is a long way around to saying that while I love the concept of right to repair, the devil is in the details and I haven't seen anyone really enumerate the details of what they'd actually like to put into law.

Am I wrong and is there anyone with actual proposed legislation?

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by consp on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:35PM (#30051247)
> Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive)

Small rant about those since I missed the earlier thread today: It's even worse. They are stupidly expensive yes, but even if you source them yourself they will cost you another 100 dollar/euro/pound to "enable". It's DRM for batteries and serves no real purpose except price gouging. If you rip out the 18650 cells (which are in almost all detachable models which is the majority) and replace them you have to re-enable the device. If the battery somehow drains "completely" and you are able to get it out of safe mode, which is quite possible since the battery isn't actually dead, you have to go to a dealer and pay the surcharge as well. There are plenty of good second hand models available which are useless due to the battery DRM since the price of the battery will be about 3-5 times the bike.

> So how do you guarantee something third-party will do what it claims to? If you use bad RAM chips in a Macbook, the consumer is going to blame Apple not whoever supplied cheap, shoddy parts (for the record, I hate soldered in RAM).

Just like when your car goes to a garage and doesn't work afterwards: the person who 'fixed' it. I can't get it in my head why people think this will be different for other things than cars.

Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by imgabe on Sunday January 23, 2022 @05:30PM (#30051218)
Apple can make the customer whole and then go sue the 3rd party manufacturer. Apple has far more resources and clout to hold manufacturers accountable than any one customer. “Don’t make crappy parts or Apple will send a team of lawyers to bankrupt you” would be a credible threat.
Re:Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’ by shagie on Monday January 24, 2022 @09:53AM (#30058281)
I don't see it working out well for Apple to become the USB charger and cord enforcer for the world.

If this is a counterfeit Apple charger, then yes. If this is a charger that was purchased from Apple as the distributor, then yes.

However, if this was a 3rd party charger purchased from a street vendor or online merchant (that has difficulties with counterfeit products) that could be used for anything from the cat water fountain pump to an Apple iPhone - then no.