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Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by Macha on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:03AM (#30021925)
> or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades.

To take IntelliJ as an example, I can't think of an improvement since 2018 that I really would pay for. Largely enabling that is why they moved to the subscription process because people like me would use IntelliJ 18 for five or so years then update for OS support or whatever. €100/yr is way more than I used to pay for intelliJ, €240/yr is way more than I used to pay for Photoshop, etc. because SaaS conversions generally involved splitting the old upfront price as if customers were on a 2 year upgrade cycle rather than 5.

As for security updates, these feel like general hygiene, e.g. if someone's selling a physical electronic product here they need to keep it from manufacturer defects for two years. If my headphones have a bug where they catch fire the manufacturer needs to eat the cost and recall and fix/replace/refund them. Even if it does wipe out their margin from the upfront €100 cost. Similarly if commercial software lets someone own my computer with log message, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect recent software to be fixed.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by sirwitti on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:29AM (#30022094)
Even though I don't like paying for software monthly, I think that the JetBrains suite of tools is an example of how this can be a fair deal.

100€/year for tools I use professionally every day and that improve my business is a no-brainer to me. Also I really like the way the prices go down if you use it for more than a year.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by cooperadymas on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:52AM (#30022234)
Your specific use case is explicitly afforded by Jetbrains licensing model. I don't think there is any problem to be had. You can buy a license now, use it for 5 years, then buy another.

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by monkey_monkey on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:19AM (#30022015)
If that's your IntelliJ usage model, why don't you just go for the perpetual licence and then update after 5 years (or whenever)?
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by justsomehnguy on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:04AM (#30022319)
> If my headphones have a bug where they catch fire the manufacturer needs to eat the cost and recall and fix/replace/refund them

> Even if it does wipe out their margin from the upfront €100 cost.

That assumes what the initial price wasn't at least x20, though.

> splitting the old upfront price as if customers were on a 2 year upgrade cycle rather than 5.

It is also about perceived cost and maintenance costs: you can charge $10/y but ~$3 from this sum would go to fees and taxes, and you still need a profit margin and sustainability margin for the future growth (and recession) and to be able to give out refunds.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by Macha on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:36AM (#30023255)
> That assumes what the initial price wasn't at least x20, though.

Yes, I assume this is true because these companies were profitable businesses charging 2x annual, not 20x, before the move to subscription models. Requiring 20 years of subscription to profit sounds highly risky and not all the kind of thing investors would support.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by fy20 on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:22AM (#30023109)
Photoshop CS2 in 2005 was $599 for the full version. Today that's the equivalent of $850. That would pay for 3.5 years with the current subscription model. So if you were upgrading every 2 years it's actually cheaper now, but of course if you wanted to keep the old version for 5 years it would be more expensive.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:14AM (#30023729)
Right, and the old way let you choose your upgrade cycle, rather than letting the company choose how often they’d like to make you buy.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:55AM (#30024286)
Outside of [possibly] amateur hobbyists, who isn't upgrading their software/hardware at least every ~3 years?
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by Macha on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:11AM (#30025507)
Have you _seen_ the IT infrastructure of some non-tech companies? The amount of companies that had to scramble for the Windows 7 (released 2009) EOL in 2020?
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:12PM (#30027520)
I'm aware that some laces are completely unaware of the world around them

Doesn't change the fact that the world keeps going whether you're paying attention or not

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:46PM (#30028974)
Do you think version 21 of a piece of desktop software is usually substantially better than version 20? Do you think those places are missing out on a lot?
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Monday January 24, 2022 @10:12AM (#30058570)
I have no idea what version 21 vs version 20 of some hypothetical piece of software is in every case

though, the odds are quite good that version updates are improvements (security, platform support, features, etc)

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @04:59PM (#30092576)
Of course that's unknowable, which is why I said "usually".

As for the second part, that's not been my experience with commercial software at that point in its life at all. Maybe yours has differed.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Thursday January 27, 2022 @10:16AM (#30101524)
I cannot recall any commercial software I've used in the last quarter century or more wherein a new release did not bring a host of fixes and features along with it
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by erwincoumans on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:25AM (#30025752)
Indeed. I'm still using Paintshop Pro 7.04 10th anniversity edition, that I purchased in 2001. It still works great today, blazing fast.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:54AM (#30024274)
This is more-or-less how Logos (a bible study tool suite) works: you buy this "version", and you get updates until/unless a new "version" comes out

You can keep running old version(s) as long as you want - but when a major rev releases, they have an upgrade option

The updates aren't "indefinite" - but they're pretty long-lasting

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by jsmith99 on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:30AM (#30022107)
At least Microsoft are still making personal office subscriptions cheaper than buying office was. 5 users, each with several devices and their own terabyte of OneDrive, is £60 a year at many retailers. I assume they will jack up the price later.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by DoingIsLearning on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:32AM (#30022512)
> Microsoft are still making personal office subscriptions cheaper than buying office was.

Nah you are missing the forest for the trees. Office at the moment is a gateway drug for Microsoft to get you on their cloud services. Office is not an end product anymore, it is a hook to capture market into their cloud services. They could sell office at a loss and still make money from all the Corporate/government contracts they got hooked on Azure.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:15AM (#30023739)
Eh I still chose to buy, I usually use a copy of office for 5-10 years, so it’s still vastly cheaper to buy.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by kaetemi on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:19AM (#30022018)
You can get Photoshop for half the price with the Photography bundle. Just includes less cloud space, which you probably don't use.