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Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by jeffbee on Thursday January 13, 2022 @01:00PM (#29924168)
The whole jury system in founded on ignorance. Both sides don't want anyone who was a cop, knows any cops, has studied the law, or was ever arrested. Often, people with any kind of higher education will be dismissed. Last time I went to jury duty they asked anyone who had ever been party to any legal matter to leave. It's pretty wild.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by fatbird on Thursday January 13, 2022 @02:57PM (#29925963)
One of my philosophy professors was excluded from jury selection, and happened to run into the lawyer who excluded him shortly after in the bathroom, and asked why. The lawyer said it was because he wrote Philosophical Quarterly on his questionnaire, and that he routinely excludes people like my professor who are highly educated.

Why? my professor asked.

Because you don't listen to the lawyers or the judge, he was told. "Big brain" people try to play Matlock and solve the case themselves, or invent theories in their imagination, or get into absurd arguments in the jury room. They screw up the whole process that's designed to bring a high level of rigour and fairness to the situation--what should and shouldn't be considered, how the law applies, etc. They're wild cards that turn trials into a game of chance instead of an orderly adversarial confrontation that's heavily regulated.

People mock jurors routinely, especially the ones who explain their reasoning in interviews afterwards. But studies routinely find that judges agree with the jury's verdict about 80% of the time.

Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by Ericson2314 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @03:50PM (#29926651)
I see what they mean, but still doesn't seem good. I would assume "big brained" witness especially defendants are told by their lawyers to shut up for similar reasons, too.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by throwawayboise on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:07PM (#29926870)
Defendants often don't testify at all, it's impossible for them to be impartial and generally they can only hurt themselves. They have the presumption of innocence and they don't have to say a word to establish that.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by Ericson2314 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:22PM (#29927778)
Good points
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by fatbird on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:19PM (#29927744)
Hans Reiser would almost certainly be free today if he hadn't overruled his lawyer and taken the stand in his own defence.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by int_19h on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:19PM (#29927741)
It sounds like he's basically saying that jury should be pro forma, rather than actually mattering.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by fatbird on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:29PM (#29927852)
No, because it's an adversarial process where the jury has to choose between the two sides. On each particular, one side wins and the other loses. Their decisions matter.

But here's the thing: their decisions, ideally, should be made on the basis of the evidence presented to them, their judgement of the credibility of the witnesses, and the instructions of the judge in how to map the facts as they determine them, to the law as described to them.

We shouldn't be okay with a juror voting guilty because of the defendent's race; we shouldn't be okay with someone who says "I'm just going to flip a coin"; I'm not sure it's a bad thing to exclude people who, in the experience of the lawyers trying the case, don't pay attention and invent their own rationales out of whole cloth and make an irrational decision by the standards of the legal reasoning the trial is supposed to provide.

Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by denismenace on Thursday January 13, 2022 @03:40PM (#29926527)
What assures them that non "Big brain" people won't do the same thing? I think for most people it would more interesting running through the scenarios in your head, instead of listening to other people (lawyers) speak.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by fatbird on Thursday January 13, 2022 @05:23PM (#29927787)
Their experience, I guess. I know that, of the university professors and professional engineers I know, they are some of the smartest and also some of the dumbest people I've ever met. It's like they invent new ways to be wrong, sometimes. I can easily imagine any of them in a jury room talking complete nonsense about who did what and why and how the law shouldn't be that way or mean that and so they have to acquit--anything but actually listen, follow along, and apply the judge's instructions.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by ClumsyPilot on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:36AM (#29932410)
A stupid person can make only certain, limited types of errors; the mistakes open to a clever fellow are far broader. But to the one who knows how smart he is compared to everyone else, the possibilities for true idiocy are boundless.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by sandworm101 on Thursday January 13, 2022 @01:05PM (#29924241)
>> Both sides don't want anyone who was a cop

Except for cops. Cops certainly like to have fellow cops on their juries. There is an old joke about removing Manhattan jury cases to Staten Island. All the NYPD cops seem to retire there. So if the case involves potential police wrongdoing or even just police testimony, one side wants a Staten Island jury as many jurors will have at least some familial connection to the police.

Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by alasdair_ on Thursday January 13, 2022 @02:32PM (#29925583)
The same thing happens with national security cases being tried in Virginia. This is one of the main reasons Snowden is unwilling to return to the US - the jury would be massively rigged against him.
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by vkou on Thursday January 13, 2022 @02:56PM (#29925947)
Is it any more 'rigged' than many of jury trials that do go through?
Re:The impact of sexual abuse on female development: a longi... by ClumsyPilot on Thursday January 13, 2022 @01:14PM (#29924384)
I feel this case goes even further than the examples given. Not very familiar with US system, but suppose we had a case of a bar braul, would we ask anyone who has ever had a fight to leave?