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Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by api on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:27AM (#29863490)
> The US policy response has been far more costly and destructive than it needed to be.

As with many things, the US response combined all the worst parts of the left's reaction to the pandemic with all the worst aspects of the right's. We had ham-fisted lockdowns (of dubious effectiveness) that destroyed small business and harmed mental health while simultaneously we had a right-wing crackpot antivaccination movement that prevented vaccine herd immunity from being achieved fast enough to really impact the virus.

Our present day two party system is like a two fisted beat down in boxing. First you get a left, then you get a right, then a left, then a right, until you're curled up on the floor and you can't take any more.

Maybe a constitutional amendment to ban political parties would help, or at least ranked choice voting so we no longer "have" to vote for incompetent fools or "our vote doesn't count" against the other incompetent fool.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by halfmatthalfcat on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:59AM (#29863748)
The lockdown was a response to a completely unknown pathogen, presumably airborne, that was causing sickness globally. A “ham fisted lockdown” was completely justified to protect everyone while we figured out what was going on.

I love everyone trying to play epidemiologist or public policy coordinator like they know what they’re talking about; what hubris.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gjsman-1000 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:08AM (#29863839)
Tell that to the small businesses that were destroyed because of “two weeks to slow the spread” and the families that relied on them.

They passionately hate these leaders.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:21AM (#29863990)
But do they hate them because they didnt provide government support as part of their response, or do they hate them because they think just doing nothing wouldn't have also destroyed their business when everyone got sick at the same time?
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gjsman-1000 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:25AM (#29864019)
They hate them for inflating the currency, giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire, for forcing their businesses to shut down for months and have 50% of small restaurants go insolvent for “two weeks to slow the spread,” for forcing people to work from home suddenly and the productivity damages and delays initially caused…

There’s plenty to hate and more.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by JaimeThompson on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:36AM (#29864113)
"giving everyone stimulus and so many benefits it’s hard to hire"

When did all of those benefits and stimulus for the common person end? It was September wasn't it with some states stopping them months before that yet the states that stopped them before are still having trouble filling jobs.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gjsman-1000 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#29864146)
The stimulus stopped as did some other programs like deferring rent payments.

Others did not though. Many people have private agreements with their landlords for payment, and some cities have their own policies. Some are still collecting unemployment. Many just have never reentered the workforce. For example, many “Baby Boomers” decide this was retirement time and retired en-masse instead of being spread out.

And then there is the whole “Great Resignation” going on for the rest.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by drekk on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:56AM (#29865012)
This is a pretty mask-off (excuse the pun) moment in your argument. So to protect small businesses we shouldn't have paid people at all or closed down at any point and we'd have more than a million dead Americans but at least workers would still be as expendable?

You don't get to call us "essential workers" and treat us like shit. This is the first time in my living memory McDonald's and co raised their starting wages. Line cooks were the most impacted and it was the most dangerous job last year. You want that to be worse, for small businesses to survive?

I can reincorporate "Drekk Design Studio", the line cook can't re-enter his mortal coil. We should have paid everyone every month of the pandemic and enforced these public health measures like Germany (1 in 10 infected vs the US 1 in 3).

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by josephcsible on Sunday January 09, 2022 @04:32PM (#29867524)
> we'd have more than a million dead Americans

We would? How do you know?

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by halfmatthalfcat on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:43AM (#29864195)
Nobody guarantees small businesses the right to exist. Sure nobody can plan for a pandemic but the government’s responsibility is to society at large, not the plight of small business owners.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by will4274 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:29PM (#29865369)
> Nobody guarantees small businesses the right to exist.

This is a bit of a dead end argument. By the same token, nobody guarantees that there is food in the supermarket for people to purchase. Yet, if there wasn't, and 90% of us starved, it'd be a fairly major problem. Small businesses and their employees make of roughly half of "society at large".

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gjsman-1000 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:52AM (#29864286)
Okay, society at large has 47.5% of its people employed by small businesses. If you removed their right to exist, you’d have 50% unemployment.

Also, what the heck? The Supreme Court has ruled businesses have some constitutional protections repeatedly.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by scollet on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:17PM (#29867882)
Jobs don't magically disappear like that.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by chrismcb on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:49PM (#29870010)
You don't think society needs small businesses? Out big businesses for that matter, as many big businesses received bailouts. Personally I would say a healthy society requires a good number of businesses.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by api on Monday January 10, 2022 @10:07AM (#29875919)
If we'd had total lock-down for two weeks it would have slowed the spread and businesses might have been able to re-open. Instead we had half-assed lockdowns forever.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by josephcsible on Sunday January 09, 2022 @04:31PM (#29867515)
> A “ham fisted lockdown” was completely justified to protect everyone while we figured out what was going on.

For the first two weeks, the lockdown was indeed completely justified. But it's completely unjustified that it lasted so much longer than that, now that we know what's going on (in particular, there's some places with lockdown rules still in effect today, 2 years later).

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by chernevik on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:31AM (#29863530)
The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic.

And it is important to distinguish those who are against mandates from those who are against the vaccine.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:59AM (#29863745)
I think this is misleading.

It's very notable that the states where the racial gap is highest are

a) not doing very well on mass vaccination b) Republican

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-glo...

So I think it's fair to ask if these people have been denied the vaccine more than they've rejected it.

Meanwhile, the stats fairly clearly show political affiliation to be a bigger factor:

> According to a report from the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) released on Sept. 28, gaps in vaccination rates across racial and ethnic groups have virtually disappeared—while gaps reflecting political affiliation have widened substantially.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by chrismcb on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:52PM (#29870035)
Are you saying new York is a republican state? Or low vaccinated with 85% having at least one vaccine? Yet only about 15% of the blacks are vaccinated. I've never heard a black person day they have been denied, but I've heard plenty say they don't trust the government and why get it.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by batch12 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:06AM (#29863816)
Where are vaccines being denied? I haven't seen this as a thing even in the reddest states.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:14AM (#29863911)
I think you're thinking of a very literal "I'm here for my vaccine" ""No, denied due to skin color" when I'm thinking of "We should spend some money and put some collective effort in to ensure everyone has quick and easy access to the vaccine, especially the poor and the vulnerable" "No, we’ll follow the same general plan as for voting, long lines at a few awkward places where lots of black people live, lots of locations with short waits where white people live".
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by chernevik on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:41AM (#29864838)
It is very unlikely that New York has failed to make the vaccine readily available to blacks, as I know it has prioritized blacks for testing and treatment. NY city has deliberately concentrated testing sites in black and minority neighborhoods. City triage regulations for dispersal of medication have explicitly preferred blacks and minorities. I would expect this attention to extend to vaccine availability, and that the powerful black advocacies would complain if it weren't.

Nevertheless, in New York blacks are under-vaccinated.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 09, 2022 @01:29PM (#29865964)
New York is one of the few states that has them ahead. New York City seems to be lagging behind on coverage generally, but that may just be an artifact of it being a very big city, big enough to be called out individually in a list of mostly states.

I don't think it affects the general trend though.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by batch12 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#29863993)
Nope, still haven't seen this as a thing. There are still drugstores and doctors offices which have vaccines in these poor areas that give the shots for free. Not getting the shot is a deliberate choice and it's not racism that is blocking people from getting it. People of every race are smart and enabled enough to get this shot if they want it.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:29AM (#29864056)
Interesting that COVID vaccine provision is less racist than the average healthcare provision:

> NAM found that “racial and ethnic minorities receive lower-quality health care than white people—even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable.” By “lower-quality health care,” NAM meant the concrete, inferior care that physicians give their black patients. NAM reported that minority persons are less likely than white persons to be given appropriate cardiac care, to receive kidney dialysis or transplants, and to receive the best treatments for stroke, cancer, or AIDS. It concluded by describing an “uncomfortable reality”: “some people in the United States were more likely to die from cancer, heart disease, and diabetes simply because of their race or ethnicity, not just because they lack access to health care.”

But I wouldn't want to doubt your anectodal evidence that black people are "smart" enough to not face institutional racism.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by batch12 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#29864142)
Are you saying that CVS has been turning away brown people who want covid shots or are you just parroting rhetoric without really knowing or looking into the true root cause of this issue? Yes. My firsthand anecdotal conversations with black friends and family confirms that they are indeed smart enough and able enough to get the widely available covid shots. For free if that is an issue. Where is this black-person-filled walled-off republican area of the country you are talking about?
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by drekk on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:04PM (#29865116)
Well it's wonderful all these black Americans you think so highly of live in states with good public transit so they can get to the pharmacy without a car, and have labor rights and money in the bank to take an unpaid day or two or three off of work to recover.

It's even better they all have a smart device or personal computer and internet connection to make the appointment or even know it's available for free. What really makes us a first world country is the knowledge that all our citizens, including ethnic minorities, speak our unofficially official English language with fluency to navigate our fragmented-but-free medical system.

And lastly it's better still that they live in a country with a rich and storied history of medical experimentation on black people that drives down trust in the first free medical intervention in modern memory.

In seriousness, close friends of mine are an hour from the nearest pharmacy. Millions of Americans live in remote areas, and we have zero infrastructure in these areas. Food deserts aren't just lacking food.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by blindmute on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:43PM (#29867137)
What does any of that have to do with being black? Talk about poverty issues if you want, but this 'racism' angle is just stupid.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gjsman-1000 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:13PM (#29865207)
If that’s the case, tell me why New York City has among the lowest Black vaccination rates in the country at 28% as of October.

Edit: Ages 18-44

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by pm90 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:02AM (#29864396)
> Are you saying that CVS has been turning away brown people who want covid shots or are you just parroting rhetoric without really knowing or looking into the true root cause of this issue?

It’s very clear that the OP is talking about systemic racism. Your anecdotes are meaningless. We need to look at statistical data. If African Americans are vaccinated less, it doesn’t matter if CVS isn’t explicitly denying them the shots. It’s possible that they may not have as many pharmacies in their neighborhoods. That they can’t get a day off to get the shots (because it’s not a mandate) in many Red States. Maybe there haven’t been enough outreach programs like Blue states trying to convince the community of the importance of getting vaccinated…

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by batch12 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:23AM (#29864630)
Without actual data this is just a debate without substance. At least my anecodal evidence is backed by something real. The racism argument seems to come up every time a minority group splits from the path laid out for them.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by pm90 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:26AM (#29864661)
Again: Your anecdotal argument is totally meaningless.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#29863858)
I don't think I'd describe the black people who don't get vaccinated as "anti-vax". Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by umanwizard on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:21AM (#29864596)
Anti-vax is anti-vax regardless of how justified you may think the reasons are.

Anyway, if it’s justifiable to believe that the medical community is behaving untrustworthily towards black people, wouldn’t that be evidence that they’re unethical in general, and reason enough for anyone, black or not, not to get the vaccine?

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by gruez on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:57PM (#29866768)
>Black people have a well earned historical distrust of the medical community that's pretty much completely unrelated to the zeitgeist of the "anti-vax" movement.

As opposed to white people? Why does it matter whether you mistrust the US government because of Tuskegee Syphilis Study, or because of MKULTRA?

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:26PM (#29866995)
It's really weird how people responding to me keep talking about distrust in the US government, when I was talking about distrust in the medical community.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by zepto on Monday January 10, 2022 @11:16AM (#29877047)
Presumably you know that significant parts of the historical “well earned distrust” that black people have of the medical community involve the government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

So does the current drive for vaccination.

It’s weird that you don’t see the connection.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by Levitz on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:57AM (#29865022)
Going down that line of thinking, I think every citizen out there can have legitimate distrust of their government.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by zepto on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:24AM (#29864648)
I don’t see how they are unrelated at all. It sounds like you are saying they just don’t ‘feel’ like the same thing, but I see no reason for that other than racism.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by x86_64Ubuntu on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:18PM (#29865255)
There is an difference between a community that just happens to have low vaccination rates, and one that is ideologically opposed to vaccinations.
Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by afavour on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:07AM (#29863834)
> The anti-vax movement isn't just right-wing. Blacks are the most under-vaccinated demographic.

I’d resist extrapolating too much from that. “hasn’t got a vaccine” doesn’t equal “is anti-vax”. There are still issues with accessibility of the vaccine (varying wildly according to location) and those with lower incomes working hourly-paid jobs are concerned about having to take time off to both get the vaccine (two doses) and deal with the side effects.

That’s not to say no black people are anti-vax, there’s a strong distrust of the medical establishment by many (given the history it’s understandable!) but just pointing out that it’s not a 1:1 relationship.

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by shmel on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:31AM (#29864746)
> prevented vaccine herd immunity from being achieved

It is easy to blame antivaxxers. Could you however name a few countries where vaccine herd immunity was achieved?

Re:Youth suicide attempts soared during pandemic, CDC report... by peatmoss on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:49AM (#29864252)
I couldn't agree more. I think when people choose their side, they have to pick positions that clearly identify them as belonging to that side. "My bonafides as a republicrat can be succinctly established by espousing a hawkish kill-all-the-butter-side-up-people position."

Two parties might be the worse possible number of parties in terms of creating polarization and extremism.

I'm generally not a fan of voter initiative processes, but imagine states passing a voter initiative to make ALL public offices non-partisan?