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Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by mehrdada on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:27AM (#29860461)
> They are taking a huge financial opportunity cost to work on uniquely high leverage problems. Maintaining your research group's build system is not what they signed up for.

Not necessarily an opportunity cost. Often they are paid in a more valuable commodity, i.e. visas.

Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by throwawaygh on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:30AM (#29860479)
Probably true.

But I'm writing from the perspective a grant reviewer. Systematically abusing immigrant labor.... well, it isn't exactly a more charitable interpretation. So, from my perspective, a bit of a moot point :)

Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by throwawayjd on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:45AM (#29861204)
That's definitely not the case, given the long queues (and low chances) for H1B and high barrier for O1 visas. I might as well get an L1 working in industry after all.
Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by mehrdada on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:20AM (#29861398)
I would be less than "definitely sure" about that. I know lots of folks firsthand whose primary motivation were that. This is obviously very country-dependent. If you are in a country with presence of say FAANG offices, sure you'd go for L1 or EB1C. Not everyone is that privileged. Not to mention during the Trump era, F1 visa was one of the only exempted ways to get your foot in the door for various countries.

(There's also OPT, btw, which is critical in the process, and H1B lottery chance, assuming a US Masters degree, was more than 50% last time I looked at it a couple years ago. O1 (and even EB1A/B) are not that rare for well-published PhDs, and EB2-NIW is quite easy for any PhD worth their salt, I'd say.)

Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by throwawayjd on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:14AM (#29862000)
Thanks for mentioning EB2-NIW, I didn't know that before, and I'll definitely look into it. Regarding O1, one of the PhDs I admire most failed to get an O1 despite his success. I guess publishing papers in our fields is kind of hard and maybe some fields are more easy to get an O1 than others :)
Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by xmprt on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:51AM (#29861241)
If someone just wants a visa, then it's much easier to get a quick and easy masters instead of doing a PhD with 5 years of research.
Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by mehrdada on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:02AM (#29861299)
Maybe--very much depends on the source and destination country. Fact on the ground is lots of people have ended up choosing that as their path, optimal or not.

You can master-out in the middle of a PhD program, which is frowned upon, but it is difficult to get funding if you directly apply for a masters degree.

Perhaps the solution is to decrease the negative cultural backlash against predisposed intention of leaving with a masters despite applying for a PhD, which is currently seen as some sort of betrayal of the adviser if you are going to have your grad students do boring work. It'll be a win-win deal in that case.

Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by auxym on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:57AM (#29865024)
In Canada, research masters are a prereq for entering a PhD program.
Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by simplestats on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:32PM (#29867046)
In the US I think it's entirely up to the school. Or at least the accreditation bodies in different fields and regions.

When I was in school, one applied to "MS/PhD" programs most typically. And all imaginable variants existed in terms of funding and likelihood of leaving with only a MS. Some schools would fund no one till they finish the MS stage, and others would fund everyone from the beginning (just give every accepted student a full fellowship for the first couple years). And also some schools were pretty notorious for kicking people out at the end of the MS stage, with a difficult exam at this step or not enough advisors to take them on for the PhD.

One positive side, though, is if you wash out of a PhD program at any later stage, you at least walked away with a Master's.

Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by throwawayjd on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:36PM (#29869934)
I don't think so. It is funded and recommended, but direct doctorate is also possible, unlike many European schools.
Re:T-Shaped People and Academia by simplestats on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:19PM (#29866938)
Master's degrees cost about $30k per year for a couple years. Not available to the average person I'd say. And even so, judging by the proliferation of MS programs at unranked schools without research programs, many of which overwhelmingly serve international students, I'd rank the visa as the most important part of the price, followed by the credential, and lastly the education itself (given that cheating is so rampant).