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Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by timonoko on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:37AM (#29792365)
Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by szszrk on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:04AM (#29793193)
This is true to the bone. It's hilarious how many native speakers ignore this - even knowingly. It also goes beyond pronunciation into local slang and choice of vocabulary.

In my experience "Native Speakers" often don't understand each other correctly (of course random ones, from different parts of world) - plenty of tiny misunderstandings due to the tempo of conversation. 5 random non-native speakers may have all bad accents but they speak freely. When a native speaker joins the room the other 5 suddenly say they can't keep up and native speaker doesn't know how to fix that. I'm not even generalizing - seen it in practice many times.

I find it very true in daily technical conversations with other companies, conferences and on any type of trainings (online courses as well). Non native speakers tend to get to the point more easily. It's easier for themselves. Then don't try to dazzle you with funny wordplay and jokes that make no sense outside of speakers country. It takes a lot of skill for a native speaker to be pleasant for foreigners.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ancapistani on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:35AM (#29796686)
> Non native speakers tend to get to the point more easily.

Interesting. I've noticed this, but have always attributed it to being a product of the British education that most of them received, being from Commonwealth countries.

> It's easier for themselves.

It's also much more clear. I tend to code switch into a more precise dialect when in a professional setting. The words I choose are often a bit more specific, but they're not unnecessarily "fancy" - they're just precisely what I'm trying to convey. I also speak slightly more slowly, with a more regular cadence, and consciously enunciate sounds (especially consonants) that I would otherwise abbreviate or omit entirely.

> Then don't try to dazzle you with funny wordplay and jokes that make no sense outside of speakers country.

I actually enjoy hearing those, but not while communicating a complex and/or abstract idea.

> It takes a lot of skill for a native speaker to be pleasant for foreigners.

This makes me wonder if I'm more or less difficult to understand than my peers for non-native speakers. Given that I live somewhere with a strong and distinctive accent, I would assume I'm more difficult to understand but that it's partially offset by my "professional voice".

The next time I speak with a colleague who is not a native English speaker, I'll ask them.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by szszrk on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:41AM (#29807439)
Thanks for your comment, it gives me a lot of insight. I had a look at your vocabulary as well.

On your accent I would not care much. You should not try to change your accent for others and you don't need to. Speak slower. That's a number one hint. If you can't force yourself to simplify your vocabulary just be consistent with it - it will soon be clear from context what it means. Also feel free to rephrase and summarize once in a while as it is a way of implementing both of those hints.

A lot of courses on Coursera, Pluralsight or similar platforms utilize that consistently (Udemy is a mess of different approaches). Default speakers speed is super low, vocabulary is super consistent within a course. Course is painfully summarizing every few minutes, at the start of a chapter, end of it, every few chapters. I've seen complains about that, but it I think such repetition works.

I asked "cloud you please speak a bit slower" a few times when I was talking on the phone in US (calling a store, library, etc.) and people seldom complied. But that's a huge aid yet I ignored it until a pilot of a small, loud plane on my trip asked my party to "speak slower so we can understand each other". Communication was over headsets and apparently it's simply good practice regardless of the language.

On your vocabulary - "us Foreigners" may have learned English from same books or Cartoon Network shows. We often have issues with same vocabulary. You in one paragraph used:

convey, enunciate, consonants - I had to pause at those. I've been thought what a consonant is 25 years ago but used it maybe 10 times since then. My fault entirely, but still. Enunciate is completely new to me. Convey I figured out from context, I knew it only from context of "conveying a survey".

"professional setting", cadence, abbreviate - such use of "setting" would be understood by more advanced speakers, in my opinion. Others might treat "setting" as an option to tweak in yaml file. Cadence I know as it's a "bicycle thing", but I don't think all of my colleagues would grasp that at first read.

Abbreviate and omit - are one of those things I'm sure we were told in school about, but is used less often one might think. It should be clear if used consistently in a larger text.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tpaulin on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:37AM (#29795862)
This sums up my experience travelling and living abroad.

To your point on vocab choice: if I use vocab not present/with different meaning in American English I would get blank stares so I often switch to the American term e.g. mobile phone vs cell phone. To your other point about local slang: I recently learned South Africans call traffic lights "robots", which I thought was fantastic.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by ed312 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:29AM (#29796618)
For strictly technical communication you make a great point - we probably should try to work with a "standardized" or "international" English. That said, something about your comment struck me as deeply sad: the "funny wordplay" injects some personality and novelty into communication. I don't want to live in a world where we communicate in a strict manner for utilitarian purposes only (including at work).
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by szszrk on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:01AM (#29807171)
It's a bit more narrow than this. Jokes, sarcasm, all kind of cheerful additions are almost always acceptable and welcomed unless you actually discuss some actual tragedy. "Foreigners" just don't joke in the same way, as it's hard to deliver a punch line, not to mention a properly timed one. I think that "personality" you talk about is still there on both sides, but is very different. The "native" one is great but hard to understand.

But English speakers that I talked with (or listened to online) love actual wordplay. It's part of their culture. Tiny rhymes, replacing words with wrong ones that sound similar and "everyone knows what he meant".

Anything that you could comment as "pun intended" or "pun not intended" might be super hard to grasp for a foreigner. It often requires listener to know correct pronunciation and some phrasal verbs to get it and often knowing some facts from that country. I usually understand these things when said by Americans, but lack knowledge to understand similar "puns" by other nations. I know for a fact that most of my colleagues don't understand most of those. They might get that there was a joke there, but they won't know if it's commenting the topic positively or negatively.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by codingdave on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:50AM (#29794674)
As a native speaker, that is an interesting take on it and one I had not considered before, so thanks for pointing it out. It meshes well with my overall attitude when I see incorrect English - to accept people wherever their language skills may fall. After all, even us natives make mistakes. As long as we can understand each other, perfect language is irrelevant.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by kmstout on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:26AM (#29795060)
> After all, even us natives make mistakes.

Aye, we natives sometimes do. ;)

My morning pedantry complete, I shall stand aside while the next greater pedant corrects this comment. Let the games begin!

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by pessimizer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:00AM (#29794227)
Pronouncing the 'b' in debt is just about impossible for anyone with an intelligible English accent. You have to shove a vowel in there which would likely result in 'debit', a different but related word that could create potential subtle and disastrous misunderstandings. Even if it were non-native speaker saying 'debit' when they meant 'debt' to another non-native speaker.

Maybe it'd be better to spell it 'degt'. Those consonants almost work smashed together, and 'deggit' or 'decked' would be confusing enough to get clarified.

edit: maybe people pronounce it like 'depth' with the 'th' replaced with a 't'?

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by thaumasiotes on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:41AM (#29794565)
The only difficulty with "debt" from the perspective of English pronunciation is that B is voiced and T isn't. So you're right that "depped" or "debbed" would be more natural. But there's no need to add an epenthetic vowel.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by pornel on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:45AM (#29794618)
As a Polish speaker, I have no problem pronouncing debt. Depth is debt-hhhh for me :)

Now you make me wonder if English speakers ever pronounce dept. literally.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tsimionescu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:16AM (#29796441)
Note: native English speakers don't pronounce "depth" with a t and h sound, they use a different consonant, where you basically bite the tip of your tongue and blow air over it, without engaging your vocal chords (the "th" in "the" is pronounced the same, but this time using your vocal chords as well - like the difference between 'p' and 'b').
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by pessimizer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:42AM (#29795232)
I hate to contradict my sibling, but I've never heard anyone pronounce "dept." as anything other than "department."
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by julesnp on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:37AM (#29795179)
We do in a different word: adept :)
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by pessimizer on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:57AM (#29795425)
This got me there by saying 'adebt' over and over again. Thanks.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by nicoburns on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:30AM (#29795108)
> Now you make me wonder if English speakers ever pronounce dept. literally.

Not often, but "dept" if sometimes used as a short form of "department" in written form, and I've heard people pronounce it literally before. It certainly can be pronounced distinctly from both "debt" and "depth" by native english speakers.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Scarblac on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:47AM (#29794641)
> edit: maybe people pronounce it like 'depth' with the 'th' replaced with a 't'?

Yes, like that. Definitely not with a vowel. There's really no way to know for a non native speaker that the b is supposed to be silent, except by learning about it as a special case.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by scatters on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @09:53AM (#29795362)
That's impossible in English though; 'b' is pronounced as a plosive, blowing through the lips as they open, while 't' is produced by tapping the tongue on the palate with lips open. So there is an interval between the 'p' and 't' which must be occupied by a vowel, typically a schwa.

'pth' is different because the same stream of air can be used for both consonants, with the tongue contacting the teeth just as the lips open, so any gap between the consonants is not perceived to native listeners.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Scarblac on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @10:00AM (#29795449)
Ah, but I'm a non-native speaker, I am not constrained by what is possible for native speakers. I suspect my 'b' is quite close to 'p' (but it's not exactly the same).

It'll probably sound like an accent to you, but then there are a thousand different native speaker accents, so that is OK with me.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tsimionescu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:17AM (#29796466)
So how do you pronounce "kept" then?
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Tagbert on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:50PM (#29797591)
I think _scatters_ meant “bt” that combination is difficult to produce without introducing an additional vowel. The “pt” is easier.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tsimionescu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:59PM (#29797724)
It's possible, but strange, since b is simply the voiced form of p - you just need to vibrate your vocal cords for a moment longer when pronouncing "kebt" (since they were already vibrating to pronounce the vowel), compared to pronouncing kept.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tsimionescu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:13AM (#29796406)
Native English speakers can pronounce the unvoiced version in "kept", is it really hard to replace the voiceless 'p' with a voiced 'b'?

For what it's worth, "bt" is not a common combination in my native Romanian either, but it is not hard to pronounce.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Tagbert on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:48PM (#29797570)
Yes, it is harder to handle the transition of voiced B to unvoiced T than it is to handle the transition from unvoiced P to unvoiced T. If you try to voice the B, you will likely end up with a voiced D at the end “Debd”.

It can be done with lots of practice but native speakers don’t normally do this.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by tsimionescu on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:00PM (#29797752)
That's a bit strange, since the vowel is already voiced, but I do believe you - it just goes to show how complex our vocal apparatus and systems of pronunciation are.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by KronisLV on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @04:28AM (#29792933)
> It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.

Heh, this seems like the right thing to do when you think about it. Why should we keep track of some odd rules that only exist for historical reasons and aren't really... you know, written down?

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by Ekaros on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:09AM (#29793218)
If they haven't cared enough to fix their mess of pulling half dozen or more sources, why should I care to follow the mess...
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @11:39AM (#29796731)
The problem isn’t the pronunciation. The problem is the spelling. Just need to get rid of all those pesky silent letters.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by ncmncm on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:57AM (#29792469)
Anybody who knows won't.
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by timonoko on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @03:11AM (#29792543)
Me knows, but I wont. Some bulgarian innkeeper will not understands any detts. But insists on me paying my deBts with special emphasis on "B".
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by toxik on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @04:36AM (#29792997)
I wouldn’t even try to use that word. I find that I can only speak as well as I write when I talk to near native speakers… I’d just say I want to pay or something
Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by szszrk on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:10AM (#29793225)
Which in exchange makes you easier to understand in most of the world. I have this with "rare" - such a problematic word for a slavic person and even if you nail it, non-native speakers may not get you. So it's better to actually say it with your mother tongue accent.

"Rare" can often be substituted by "seldom", but that doesn't work very well in restaurants. I like my steak medium-well anyway.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by toxik on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:46AM (#29793433)
"I would like my stake medium seldom, please."

I have a hard time with the word "ineligible" - easy to read and write, but I just cannot say it without stumbling. No particular part of the word is hard either, it just... comes out wrong. I think it may be unusual way you turn it into syllables: in-el-i-gi-ble.

Re:Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt' by ncmncm on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:32AM (#29805873)
My grandfather, who grew up in Santa Rosa, California, could not say "monogamous".