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Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @01:37PM (#29771969)
Being able to choose between horrible options is exactly the definition of freedom. Believe it or not many people would choose free destitution over pampered slavery. It is exactly the ability to make this choice, at the most extreme level, that should be respected. To take an maximal example: you should be able to sell your kidneys to fuel your heroin habit, for no other reason than because no one can claim more ownership over them than you.

To protect people, against their will, from the consequences of their own misfortune or inadequacy is fundamentally paternalistic. The goal isn't efficiency, but the primacy of agency and consent.

Re:We need to reclaim our attention by andersonvom on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:11PM (#29773237)
If the two horrible options were free from context, sure. But that's hardly (if ever) the case. It is very convenient to start from a place where A has power over B, then say "B is free to choose whatever crappy options A offers, because... freedom".
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:04PM (#29775091)
We have to start from some place don't we? Even if we perfectly redistributed wealth tomorrow, we'd see billionaires in a generation or two.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by andersonvom on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:06PM (#29776869)
This only goes to show that the current system is inherently broken, but this is a completely different conversation.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @01:54PM (#29772194)
What is wrong with paternalism?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @01:58PM (#29772239)
The authoritarian and condescending nature of it.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:01PM (#29772277)
Why is paternalism within the family not authoritarian or condescending?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:03PM (#29772300)
It absolutely is! In the context of raising a child, it may be appropriate. When interacting with an equal it is not.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:32PM (#29772704)
What determines equality?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:34PM (#29772725)
It is a moral axiom:

> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:43PM (#29772859)
And how are children, as men, not also created equal, yet still subject to paternalism?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:49PM (#29772949)
I think children are excluded from the definition of "men".
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:50PM (#29772961)
Surely not by the above moral axiom.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:48PM (#29773689)
Surely by it. I would struggle to find a precedent where children are considered equal to adults, and not subject to their authority. In fact my whole point is we shouldn't treat adults the same way we do children.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Monday January 03, 2022 @05:06PM (#29787636)
Why is it authoritarian and condescending for a government to provide service and address societal problems, but no less authoritarian or condescending for a government to be in the business of protecting the rights that any self-respecting freeholder should be ready and willing to do so?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:15PM (#29828437)
Because that self same freeholder should be ready and willing to negotiate with others to provide whatever goods and services he needs. He shouldn't need a third party to intervene on his behalf, and, knowing that depriving anyone of freedom deprives him as well, should be loathe to apply force to compel the other free party he is negotiating with to meet his terms.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Thursday January 06, 2022 @02:21PM (#29828540)
Sounds like then the truly moral position would be to cut out the government entirely. If the freeholder is ready to take on the grave responsibility of ensuring every single interaction, both large and small, are secure, then they should also be responsible for guaranteeing their own rights from all threats large and small, and not abdicate that in favor of a shadowy government.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:26PM (#29834829)
Believe it or not, in the moment, you can use any sort of force required to defend yourself from violence. This is especially true in places that have castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws. The government is there mostly to sort it out afterwards, and to discourage aggression by providing an alternative (due process) and punishing transgressors. The punishment of crime is what the government monopolizes, not self defence, since the alternative is generations-long blood feuds.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Thursday January 06, 2022 @11:35PM (#29834896)
Why should the government be able to monopolize the punishment of crime, and not those who uphold their own rights?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:52AM (#29840529)
Because if they don't maintain law and order they fail to meet the basic definition of government.
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Friday January 07, 2022 @12:39PM (#29842064)
Why does there need to be a government at all?
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by thegrimmest on Saturday January 08, 2022 @12:13AM (#29848821)
To defend the liberty of its citizens =)
Re:We need to reclaim our attention by Apocryphon on Saturday January 08, 2022 @11:39PM (#29860185)
Isn't that what the right of bear arms is for?