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Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by FearlessNebula on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:08PM (#29739369)
I never understood why Apple catches so much flack for this. They don’t own Foxconn, it’s a contact. There’s only so much they can audit, and is there any other company they could choose instead who has iPhone-level manufacturing scale? I suspect they’ve got no choice but Foxxcon and Pegatron. Pick your poison.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by klyrs on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:20PM (#29739545)
Apple is making money hand over fist, and they've got nearly $200B cash on hand. They aren't directly responsible for the working conditions, but they set the terms of the contract. They could pay more, and demand humane treatment and living wages in their contract. With that warchest, they could afford their own manufacturing facilities -- Foxxcon vs Petragon is a false dichotomy. But they don't. This is their responsibility, but they prefer to keep it at arms-length and pretend that they don't know what conditions will result from paying a certain price per unit.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by mohanmcgeek on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:28PM (#29739647)
The factory in question doesn't make just iphones. It also makes Amazon firesticks "among other things"

Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least. Besides, Apple is the only company that has put the said plant under probation. If anything, the other companies should be getting some flak for not even caring.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/rumour-lea...

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by gruez on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:45PM (#29739858)
>Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least.

"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"

Saying "$COMPANY treats its workers poorly" provides a concrete entity to be mad at and might lead to some protests/social media posts, whereas saying "most electronics makers treat their workers poorly probably leads to a resounding "that sucks but what can you do?".

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by zdragnar on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:49PM (#29740662)
Ah yes, the "but Something has to be done" fallacy.

Placing blame arbitrarily, directing anger at the wrong people, and protesting because the mob said to on social media all leads to solutions for the wrong problems.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by klyrs on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:51PM (#29740685)
I don't have standing for any legal act in India. I can boycott and criticize the company that's doing business in my country. And that's why we focus on Apple -- the company whose reputation is so important to its market value.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by klyrs on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:32PM (#29739701)
I agree, other companies should be getting flak for this. Apple does not deserve less attention. Apple has the power and financial standing to make a difference here. With great power comes great responsibility and all that.

Just because others are using this facility isn't an excuse by any means. Like I said, Apple could build another factory. They choose not to, because they profit from the human rights abuses.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by quesera on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:43PM (#29739828)
> Apple could build another factory.

If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple.

Apple shut the plant down. They are making a difference. Do you know what it was like before Apple arrived with enormous manufacturing requirements, and had the power to influence things? Not better!

Apple does not profit from human rights abuses. Apple writes contracts to prevent them. Those contracts are not always followed, and Apple's audits sometimes fail to turn up problems in time. This can be tragic, but it's blatantly incorrect to assert that Apple doesn't take this extremely seriously.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by lp0_on_fire on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:31PM (#29740449)
> If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple.

They have 200 BILLION dollars CASH on hand. It might not be "simple" but it's certainly not impossible when you're richer than Croesus.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by klyrs on Thursday December 30, 2021 @04:40PM (#29741775)
Indeed, I cannot understand how "you have $200B, there are more than two options here" could be interpreted to imply that a third option is necessarily simple.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by dehrmann on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:32PM (#29739694)
Half the reason to go with a contractor is you know they'll do sketchy things, but you get to plead ignorance.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by Syonyk on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:59PM (#29740029)
See Amazon's delivery drivers...

"We never said they had to pee in bottles and run red lights to make the delivery schedules, that's on them! We just said deliver these packages..."

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by dehrmann on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:18PM (#29740293)
Piss bottles have been standard industry practice long before Amazon.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by maerF0x0 on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:43PM (#29739830)
> I suspect they’ve got no choice but Foxxcon and Pegatron

If my quick google is correct they could buy foxconn for ~$3B USD out of the 36B cash on hand. Or start building a competitor...

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by ectopod on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:18PM (#29740299)
Or make the phones themselves!
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by evilduck on Thursday December 30, 2021 @03:08PM (#29740853)
I think it's as simple that for every "Apple can do no wrong" out of touch fanboy, there's about a half dozen "Apple can do nothing good" commenters online that are angered by Apple simply continuing to exist. No amount of oversight, auditing or spending will appease them even if it's tenfold as much as the next best tech company.
Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by mhoad on Thursday December 30, 2021 @03:20PM (#29740976)
Apple publicly promised everyone that the first time they were exposed as having terrible working conditions and major human rights issues in their supply chain that it would never happen again.

They are the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of delivering on that promise.

Asking for some accountability on that isn’t some hysterical opinion.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by evilduck on Thursday December 30, 2021 @06:10PM (#29742665)
Sorry dude but your comments on this thread are the standard Apple-hater stereotype, so forgive me for not believing you care. Where's the outrage about Playstations, XBoxes, Dells and Pixels made by Foxconn? Nowhere, because nobody cares when it isn't Apple.

There's never a demand that we change trade agreements at a political level. There's never a news story that Microsoft is sourcing from Foxconn. That makes the motives for the concern suspect.

By all means, we should hold Apple accountable to their word. But this seems like the absolute least effective way to enact the change being requested.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by mhoad on Thursday December 30, 2021 @06:44PM (#29743023)
What on earth are you talking about?

Of course people can be mad at Apple specifically for the reasons already outlined:

1. This is a long term pattern of behaviour from them.

2. They promised they would fix it. While everyone seems to agree that as the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of doing that the fact is they didn’t.

3. There is zero chance that any of this is happening without their knowledge. That excuse worked the first time but not now.

Anyone who fits that pattern is of course fair game but don’t pull that kind of nonsense where unless you criticise everything that is wrong in tech supply chains than you are secretly “just a hater”.

If you claim that we should hold Apple to account for their word how exactly do you suggest we go about change?

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by quesera on Thursday December 30, 2021 @07:55PM (#29743592)
I think you have an oversimplified view of very complicated problems.

1. The long-term pattern of behavior from Apple is to work with manufacturers in developing countries. And to write in very specific requirements for worker treatment into contracts. And to audit facilities, and shut them down when not compliant. And to have Apple staff on-site at those facilities.

They do not see everything, and they do not prevent everything. But they do make more, and a more visible effort than anyone else.

2. Apple cannot "fix" the woes of the developing world, certainly not alone, and certainly not immediately. Even with the cooperation of foreign corporations, with Amazon and Microsoft and Dell who all work with the same partners. Even with the cooperation of foreign governments (local, regional, national), who are of course never ever corrupt, and never look the other way when a sub-sub-sub-contractor does a crappy job. Perfection is not happening.

The proper questions are: Is Apple leading the way for improving things for workers? And are they doing enough to improve things such that additional doings would have only marginal effects? Clearly the answers are YES and maybe. My opinion of the latter "maybe" is more like "probably" because I'm biased to believe that the people who run Apple recognize the moral and economic value in doing so. Obviously you disagree on that, but you are no more objectively correct than I.

3. You honestly believe that someone in Apple was aware of tainted food being served to workers, and decided "eh, who cares?"?? Honestly?

I think that would say more about you than it would about Apple.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by evilduck on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:35PM (#29751684)
Likewise, if we want to solve an industry-wide or global labor ethics problems we need industry wide or global solutions. Tariffs, taxes, regulation, trade agreements and embargoes solve these scale of problems and we do it all the time. Make it an even playing field across the industry and make it more expensive to do the wrong things and force externalized costs to be part of the price.

Apple fucks up, but it seems entirely unrealistic to expect a company to voluntarily put themselves at a competitive disadvantage, to give up profit, and to make everything harder and more expensive for themselves just because they're a big player in the market. That gets the exact results we see, instead of the solution we want. Let's try to solve the problem and let's line up Apple to be first in line for inspection, but it can't be a line of just one company if we expect actual results otherwise we're just going to shift around the problem instead of solving it. It's not like Google and Microsoft are small scrappy startups looking for a moonshot, they're chomping at the bit to take marketshare away from Apple and they're both already in bed with Foxconn too.

Re:Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with wor... by gimmeThaBeet on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:41PM (#29740555)
I would mostly agree, the thing I try to understand is the motivations for working with these ODMs.

There's sort of the line of business. Just assuming from a black box, Apple wants to build devices in these low-cost countries. Is it a competitive advantage to do this themselves? Do they have the skillset and wherewithal to do it well? They design chips, but they have TSMC make them, because among other things, there's much more to being a fab that bluntly, I think apple is not equipped for. Similarly, I think, design the products, figure out processes, then get them from the companies that spend all their time coordinating and building the stuff at a global scale.

Not to exculpate Foxconn, this is not the first time there's been stories like this of Indian facilities of Taiwan ODMs. And usually the first thing that gets pointed out, is that the ODM is itself using local contractors. So the reality is, where does the buck actually stop? The big question I have, is how would apple do this themselves? Is it that Foxconn has not quite figured out how to operate in India effectively, or is there some implicit outsourcing of misery to the next sub-contractor?

I assume apple also works with everyone else who has the scale to build iPhones like Wistron and Flex, but apple already similarly put one of Wistron's Indian factories on probation after a riot due to unpaid wages(?). I want to say they were mainly doing macbooks and ipads?

My understanding was one of the things is that the ODM books all the components and sort of capital for building things, so there's some capital structure things that I probably don't fully appreciate. No guarantee that's correct though...