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Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @03:14PM (#29729428)
Good questions.

Let's say I create a piece of digital art and create an NFT out of it. The NFT somehow starts increasing in value. Then I copy my original digital art-asset and perhaps use a Photo-Shop filter to make it have a different hue. I turn that into another NFT. And I keep on doing this for all colors of the rainbow.

What prevents me from creating new NFTs with the same or slightly modified underlying digital asset?

Re:Why Web3? by quickthrower2 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @03:38PM (#29729694)
It is worse than that, there are no pixels! The NFT is a short string, usually a URL. It’s effectively a QR code! You can create as many copies as you like. The “value” of an NFT comes in somehow convincing people you are the official one. This needs a lot of clout: e.g. a sale by Sotherbys that is well known that people can trace back the NFT to. In a sense its like a digital antique when there are easy fakes.

My way of thinking is an NFT is a shitcoin with supply 1 and smallest denomination 1.

Re:Why Web3? by SV_BubbleTime on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:20PM (#29732777)
> My way of thinking is an NFT is a shitcoin with supply 1 and smallest denomination 1.

Ah, see, I ususually skip over NFT nonsense because of the sheer number of WHY and WHO it brings up… but now and then it’s summed up nicely.

Re:Why Web3? by krrrh on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @04:51PM (#29730529)
Walter Benjamin talked about this problem in 1935 [0]. It's particularly an issue with photography as an art form. For instance Jeff Wall's masters are all stored as RAW digital files and displayed as light boxes [1]. Theoretically he could produce an unlimited number of editions of each work, and theoretically anyone working at a record label who had received a copy of the hq file could do the same [2].

What prevents this and maintains the value of the work is that there are legal and social norms enforced through a vast network of institutions (galleries, museums, collectors, art fairs) that ensure that there will never be more than 1 actual edition of the work, or 2 or 3, whatever it is the number never changes after it is set, and minting more editions would be professional suicide, and the network of institutions would never allow or recognize it even if an artist tried it.

Lawrence Lessig's book Code developed the argument that any combination of social norms, legal structures/enforcement, and code or infrastructure can function as law, and sanction or foster certain behaviour and markets. "Code is law" was a clever observation and a bit of a revelation, but the NFT crowd seem to believe that it's enough or that it has more value than the social norms and contract law of the existing art world. It's engineering mindset hubris.

There's an attempt now to work social norms into the NFT space and enforce etiquette around "right-clicking", but convincing collectors of paintings that they could continue to collect photography was less of a challenge than convincing generations raised on BitTorrent, DRM wars, and authorless memes to introduce false scarcity into online digital abundance.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Work_of_Art_in_the_Age_of_... [1] https://artblart.com/tag/transparency-in-light-box/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destroyed_Room:_B-Sides_an...

Re:Why Web3? by jandrese on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @03:59PM (#29729957)
A NFT is just a digital receipt, and there's nothing that ties the receipt to the original creator or work except for a bit of text that the person creating the NFT has full control over. So they are effectively worthless for determining ownership, especially for copyright purposes.

The "non-fungible" part refers only to the receipt, not the original work.

Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:29AM (#29733953)
> NFT is just a digital receipt

Right but a receipt of what? A receipt, evidence, or proof, that a transaction took place. But a transaction of what? One party got money. What did the other party get? A proof that s/he paid the money. For what? For the proof that s/he paid the money ... for the proof that s/he paid the money for the proof that ... LOL.

Makes me think that I should make an NFT out of Brooklyn Bridge. That might gain lots of fame and thus lots of value?

Re:Why Web3? by jandrese on Thursday December 30, 2021 @09:45PM (#29744302)
It is proof that you added an entry to a blockchain. That's it.

Your last sentence hit the nail straight on the head. You can in fact make a Brooklyn Bridge NFT and you would hardly be alone.

Re:Why Web3? by raesene9 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @03:27PM (#29729561)
In many cases you don't even need to modify it. Ownership of an NFT often does not provide copyright on the original image (https://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2021/04/article_0007.h... has some interesting details on what you do and don't get with an NFT). So if you made the original image, you can just mint a new NFT of that image and sell it.

Heck you can mint as many NFTs as you like of any image you own the copyright of :)

Re:Why Web3? by kpommerenke on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @05:43PM (#29731112)
Why do I need to own the copyright to mint an NFT of the image?
Re:Why Web3? by raesene9 on Thursday December 30, 2021 @05:06AM (#29735339)
So, if you don't own the copyright and then mint an NFT, in theory the copyright holder could get the source image for your NFT taken down (depending on where it's hosted of course)

That hasn't stopped loads of NFTs of copyrighted images being minted ofc.

Re:Why Web3? by makeee on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @05:06PM (#29730687)
This isn't any different than an artist offering a limited run of physical prints and then going back on their word. There's generally some level of trust between the buyer and the artist and if they break that trust then they hurt demand for their work. I've been following the NFT space for years and I haven't seen this issue crop up much at all.
Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:00AM (#29733797)
I can understand that trust and reputation has something to do with it but I wonder with digital art it becomes a question of how much do I need to modify my copy of the original to make it a new piece of art.

And if NFT does not give you the copyright I might sell the copyright or license it to 3rd parties who could not care less about you having an NFT somehow "associated" with it.

I guess the key is what does it mean for an NFT to be "associated" with anything.

It's mind-boggling

Re:Why Web3? by tshaddox on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @07:47PM (#29732136)
What prevents a musical artist from publishing a bunch of unoriginal filler after having a major hit? Is this really a serious threat to the concept of publishing music?
Re:Why Web3? by boomlinde on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:27PM (#29732433)
Copies of music recordings aren't typically sold under the pretense that they're unique. If your favorite artist produced a record and sold you a copy, guaranteeing that it the only copy that'll ever be made, you might be inclined to pay more for it. Let's say you buy it, because you believe this might be the only opportunity to own this music. If your favorite artist then proceeded to sell other records with the same music but with an additional 100 ms of silence at the end of each track, you'd feel tricked.

It's a terrible analogy from the start, don't blame me.

Re:Why Web3? by tshaddox on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:46PM (#29732559)
> Copies of music recordings aren't typically sold under the pretense that they're unique.

My point is that if you buy a new record from an artist you generally expect it to be original music that’s the product of creativity. But a lot of artists release things that are perceived by many to be very derivative, unoriginal, and not creative.

Re:Why Web3? by boomlinde on Thursday December 30, 2021 @05:20AM (#29735440)
> My point is that if you buy a new record from an artist you generally expect it to be original music that’s the product of creativity.

No, you expect it to be one of hundreds to hundreds of thousands of exact copies that anyone else could buy regardless of whether you own a copy or not, and that will usually be repressed if the supply runs dry. It's the product of a record pressing/CD replication machine more than anything else; no creative or original work goes into producing copy 67,904 out of 100,000. There is no expectation that you are paying for original work. The money you spend might go into funding original work, indirectly, but what you're paying for is a copy, and that's also what you generally expect it to be.

If consumers generally each bought the only copy of the records they own, it might have been more relevant.

Re:Why Web3? by tshaddox on Thursday December 30, 2021 @10:31AM (#29737497)
But again, this thread is about how different separate creative works from one artist are, not how many identical copies of a single work the artist releases.
Re:Why Web3? by namose on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @11:31PM (#29733613)
There’s a limit to artists’ ability to do this. It’s called copyright law and it’s enforced by a central authority. Unfortunately no such central authority exists in the NFT space, so it’s perfectly within anyone’s rights and abilities to copy an artwork and sell it as their own.
Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:03AM (#29733815)
When you say "sell an artwork" do you mean sell all rights to it or license its copying for personal use etc? Copyright and contract law still applies. But how does it apply to NFTs?
Re:Why Web3? by namose on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:23AM (#29733920)
It doesn’t. Or it will some day, either way, this is the point. It’s still going to require a centralized authority to enforce fair use, ultimately making it no different than any other method of distributing art.
Re:Why Web3? by corobo on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @03:41PM (#29729739)
> What prevents me from creating new NFTs with the same or slightly modified underlying digital asset?

That one seems like a classic supply and demand thing. Make too many, sell none

Having said that, that does actually seem to be the business model in this wave. At least for the ones people are heavily pushing that get on on my radar. Maybe not hues but "accessories" (procedurally generated png layers, flattened)

Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:09AM (#29733836)
It seems as if the only thing I get when I buy an NFT is the ability to prove that I did pay money for that NFT for a specific seller.

But because anybody else can sell anybody else very similar NFTs it looks like the supply is infinite.

The only differentiator then is who is the seller, right? But how can the value of a thing be different based on who sells it?

Re:Why Web3? by miracle2k on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:45AM (#29734604)
> But because anybody else can sell anybody else very similar NFTs it looks like the supply is infinite.

People only want to pay for the NFT, because it is supposed to represent a desirable piece of art. The only person who has the moral authority to sell it is the artist. Anyone can create an NFT that "links" to some piece of art they found online, but if I am not the artist, why would anyone pay me for it?

Additionally of course, there are artists whose work is more desired, so they command a premium over other artists.

Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @03:06AM (#29734729)
I can see a way it could make sense. The NFT contains text that declares what the buyer of it gets. For instance they get the right to use the digital art on their website. And maybe a right to sell that right to someone else if they stop using it on their website.

If I tried to create such an NFT from someone else's art that would be fraud if I don't own the copyright to that art.

Is that how it works in practice? Do NFTs (typically) include immutable text which clearly spells out what rights are transferred to the buyer of the NFT? And because the text of the NFT is in the blockchain which can not easily be forged, courts will accept that fact as evidence of a binding contract?

Re:Why Web3? by miracle2k on Thursday December 30, 2021 @04:30AM (#29735128)
> Do NFTs (typically) include immutable text which clearly spells out what rights are transferred to the buyer of the NFT?

This can be included immutably on-chain. Mostly it is done off-chain, which is ok, because enforcement of any such license would happen off-chain and in courts anyway. Frequently, no license details are given at all, which may also be ok, because people who collect fine art aren't doing it for the use value ("I need a stock photo for my landing page"), they are doing it because they feel good about being an art collector. In that sense, very limited use-rights are actually required.

Re:Why Web3? by shagie on Thursday December 30, 2021 @05:56PM (#29742555)
> In that sense, very limited use-rights are actually required

Specifically, what use rights does an NFT grant?

For photographs (and I have a small gallery of them collected over the years in art festivals and galleries), they're hanging on my wall... though I can't publicly display them (that's part of the copyright).

If I sell a print of a digital image (that I captured with a camera) and I sell a NFT of the same digital image, what are the differences in the use rights that the two buyers have?

If the digital image, hosted on a server that I maintain goes offline (I didn't pay my network solutions bill and someone else buys the domain), what does does the NFT retain rights to?

Re:Why Web3? by miracle2k on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:22AM (#29745793)
The NFT is just an entry in a ledger. What rights the buyer has to the intellectual property that is your photo is decided by your respective jurisdictions. In general, I would think this is largely up to you - i.e. only the rights you explicitly granted.

However, I believe in the US, there is no right to even download a copy of a file on the internet for purely personal reasons. I could see an NFT buyer successfully argue in court that this right is implied, even if not specified.

What happens if the file goes offline? I would think that this will not effect an existing license that you have previously granted. Of course, the buyer may struggle to make use of their license rights if they did not retain a copy of the image themselves.

Re:Why Web3? by shagie on Friday December 31, 2021 @03:26PM (#29752199)
> In general, I would think this is largely up to you - i.e. only the rights you explicitly granted.

Do you have any examples of an NFT that grant rights accompanied by TOS terms for minting the NFT that affirm that it is the original artist or someone who is authorized to do so who is creating it?

> However, I believe in the US, there is no right to even download a copy of a file on the internet for purely personal reasons.

There is de minimis which isn't so much a right but rather a "this is beneath the concern of the law".

As to the US aspect, every country that is a signatory of the Berne Convention ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention ) recognizes the minimum standard for protection which includes the right to to make replications or display to the public that is held as part of copyright.

For an NFT, would a baseball card be an acceptable comparison for what it represents in the real world? To that end, I would contend that the same thing happens to it when the player that it represents (there is no ownership conveyed in a baseball card beyond the card itself) leaves the game.

Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Saturday January 01, 2022 @07:09PM (#29764276)
It's interesting to think NFTs as digital baseball cards. Both (can) have scarcity.

But baseball cards also have physicality. They are close to our world we can see them and turn them around. Physicality gives them desirable properties like easily carrying them around, no computer required. A physical thing is unique. Any sequence of bits on the other hand can always be copied.

Re:Why Web3? by stathibus on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @04:14PM (#29730108)
The photoshopping step is unnecessary. You can literally mint infinite NFTs of the same piece of digital art.
Re:Why Web3? by galaxyLogic on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:05AM (#29733819)
> You can literally mint infinite NFTs of the same piece of digital art.

That's what I fathomed. What I don't get is why would anybody pay anything for them

Re:Why Web3? by cfeduke on Thursday December 30, 2021 @04:03AM (#29735009)
The use cases are more than art. Art is a part of the equation, sure, and we see these... incredibly inflated prices being paid for art as insane. Digital art. That can be replicated. In which ownership of the NFT may/may not convey ownership of the artwork. Of course this sounds absolutely nuts, and people can be forgiven for believing it is absolutely nuts and that's all there is to it.

But consider a very successful real world use case: trading cards. As NFTs, these digital cards are limited by contract on their respective blockchain such that infinite copies cannot be printed - they are limited edition. Scraps of cardboard for this rookie or that player only have ever had value to people who collect them - now the same sort of thing exists in the digital realm, without the risk of losing the physical collection in a house fire. It's less the artwork that is valuable, but the NFT itself.

Another valid use case is Patreon-like support of artists (especially in the music industry). As it is now, tens of thousands of people contribute money monthly to their favorite artists via platforms like Patreon often in exchange for perks like early releases to tracks or works in progress. NFTs can represent the same sort of thing, except that at some point in the future these early released tracks - or really - the possession of a fact of support for a band during their career as an NFT - has value amongst other fans. In some cases possessing these things can become backstage passes to a band at a concert.

Much of the NFT space right now is a cash grab. That doesn't mean valid use cases won't emerge.

Re:Why Web3? by dmitriid on Thursday December 30, 2021 @04:43PM (#29741795)
> Digital art. That can be replicated. In which ownership of the NFT may/may not convey ownership of the artwork. Of course this sounds absolutely nuts

So. Digital art can be replicated, and they may or may not convey ownership. And then you immediately turn around, replace "digital art" with "digital cards" and "perks" and pretend that this is now somehow different just because you're using NFTs for literally the same thing, but called a different name.

> That doesn't mean valid use cases won't emerge.

It means exactly that: valid use cases will not emerge because of what NFTs are.

Re:Why Web3? by stathibus on Friday December 31, 2021 @04:31PM (#29752719)
None of these are valid use cases. All of what you describe is solved already much more simply and cheaply without blockchain.