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Re:The Google home page is 500K by dangus on Friday December 24, 2021 @12:17AM (#29670515)
I don't even mind logging in, but it does seem weird to force it before letting potential customers interact with the product. Why not just prompt for registration when personalization features are used?

What I do mind is the price...if you read the FAQ, they want to charge as low as $10/month, $30/month for families once it exits beta. ("As low as" means "possibly higher")

That's very high. The family price equates to 16 Office 365 Family seats, which includes 16TB of cloud storage.

In my opinion, the price for this kind of product should be more in the realm of $50/year. I'm thinking a price closer to what password managers charge.

This price also will need to be adjusted for global customers if that is the eventual intention. Spotify in India costs less than $1.50 a month.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by freediver on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:02AM (#29670770)
The goal of Kagi is not to be a mass market product, but a premium search engine, offering best in class search product experience with top privacy guarantee (as the business model does not require fiddling with your data in bad ways). Search is arguably one of the most important activities we do every day both in personal and work setting. Unique Kagi features should be well worth the cost.

It is also an independent company, bootstrapped by the founder, without a ton of VC money to subsidize the cost. And at $10/mo per user it would be barely breaking even, if at all. So there are a lot of factors of play, and I completely understand why $10/mo may sound excessive given all the free alternatives out there. It is just one of the many uphill battles we are fighting ;)

Re:The Google home page is 500K by stayfrosty420 on Friday December 24, 2021 @06:27AM (#29672715)
tbh what your saying doesn't make sense to me vis. breaking even, unless there is some signifcant manual element to your search indexing. If this isn't the case, the revenue received from new customers should far outpace the marginal cost of supporting new customers unless you have signifcant fixed costs for some reason. I am interested in your product and will sign up for the beta and if it is quality would even be willing to pay the price if it was flawless quality, but i'd suggest doing some analysis vis. how many users you would need to reduce the price closer to somehting like $5 a month, which is far more palatable to me.

Right now you're charging nearly as much as something like Netflix, so your product has to be nearly a Netflix' worth's more value than DuckDuckGo (rather than Google as it's closer to your value proposition) for me to rationally justify the price.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by dangus on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:28AM (#29670898)
I definitely understand where you're coming from. One can make the argument that a search engine is used with an incredible amount of frequency for most people – dozens of times per day. It should be worth a lot.

One thing that's great about search engines in terms of entrepreneurship fundamentals is that is is such a massive market. You only need a fraction of a percent to be a viable business, I'm sure.

I can also understand how underpricing a product can be a big mistake. Somebody who wants this kind of product has already made the conscious decision to pay. Pricing a product too low can be a signal that it's not a good product.

Perhaps one might say that this is an example of how complexity and cost of production is a bit detached from the customer's willingness to pay. The most complex software product, the operating system, is essentially given away for free. People are mostly not willing to pay for it, even businesses don't want to anymore. On the other end of the spectrum, there are SaaS products with very low levels of complexity pulling in a lot more than $0.

If it's truly barely breaking even at $10/month, that fascinates me. It must mean that search engines have to do a lot of computing.

In any event, I wish you the best, because the features do look cool. I like the idea of being able to set site preferences (e.g., when I search for a movie I might like to see Wikipedia over IMDB).

Re:The Google home page is 500K by freediver on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:35AM (#29670948)
> Perhaps one might say that this is an example of how complexity and cost of production is a bit detached from the customer's willingness to pay. The most complex software product, the operating system, is essentially given away for free.

Spot on. Not that long ago we used to pay for OS, even beta versions of OS. Nowadays, most complex software products imaginable, like OS, browser, search engine, social networking... - are all free, and over the years we as a society have been slowly drawn into an expectation of these to be free. Of course someone or something is paying for it, as all these also "magically" generate hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue. And when someone shows up with an idea to actually sell such product and tries to create a business where user is also the customer, and incentives between the user and the business are aligned, they are usually looked at with a raised eyebrow.

I am personally of the opinion that you always get what you pay for and that one should not shy away from paying and supporting products they love. I hope we are building one such product, that some people (and admittedly you need to be a little different to use and pay for Kagi) will fall in love with.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by feffe on Friday December 24, 2021 @06:04AM (#29672584)
If it really starts to take off I think you should consider lowering the price. Initially I understand a higher price is required to be able to cover expenses. A price that is low enough to not matter would lure more customers into the fold (if the products deliver on its promise).
Re:The Google home page is 500K by throwawaylinux on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:46AM (#29671021)
The more expensive it is the better it will have to be relative to free alternatives though.

Is it that you're doing a large amount of compute per search which yields better results but higher cost per search?

Re:The Google home page is 500K by tjalfi on Friday December 24, 2021 @03:21PM (#29677357)
Have you considered adding business or enterprise subscriptions[0]? B2B users are a lot less price sensitive[1] than consumers especially when you're competing against a free product.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2781133

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13843743

Re:The Google home page is 500K by freediver on Friday December 24, 2021 @07:18PM (#29679074)
Not really in a serious way, partly because I do not have an idea where would I start. Any ideas?
Re:The Google home page is 500K by sobkas on Sunday December 26, 2021 @08:09AM (#29692113)
> Not really in a serious way, partly because I do not have an idea where would I start. Any ideas?

On premise search. Businesses have lots of resources on their internal websites, but no easy way to search them in one place. Addition of role based search, when I'm logged and search only shows me resources I have access to.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by eitland on Friday December 24, 2021 @04:19AM (#29671924)
> What I do mind is the price...if you read the FAQ, they want to charge as low as $10/month, $30/month for families once it exits beta. ("As low as" means "possibly higher")

$10 a month is less than one lost hour of work.

I hope they price it around there somewhere so that many will use it but even at $20 it is a no-brainer for me.

The results are in another league compared to what I get elsewhere and by now it also feels like an insult every time I realize Google has altered my query: do you guys really think I don't know what I am doing?

Google probably works better for illiterate people these days, but in the process they have alienated me. I have lost too many hours searching for things I knew used to be there only to be ignored and corrected by their AI. It is rather patronizing at this point.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by ralferoo on Friday December 24, 2021 @07:26AM (#29673056)
> $10 a month is less than one lost hour of work.

This is a pretty feeble argument for something, especially for a product where the user perception is that it should be free, and there exist multiple free options already.

While "one hour of work" might not seem a lot, a different way of looking at that is that for most people there are 160 hours of work in a month, and so this thing needs to be worth 1/160th of their life.

It's not so hard to make that choice for a couple of things that are of obvious value, but when they start adding up in your life for basic things, people will question the value of it to them, and I'd argue for most people, search just isn't worth that much to them when there are so many good free options.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by maven29 on Friday December 24, 2021 @06:17AM (#29672654)
For people who cannot afford the $10, I can unironically suggest bing. It actually responds to long queries much better than google.

You should still use the website's search function first. Github issues/SO search often turns up results that google will ignore.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by stanmancan on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:37AM (#29670972)
It’s unfair to compare pricing between two totally different products, especially when one of them is owned by one of the biggest companies in the world with millions of paying customers and a vast suite of products.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by no_time on Friday December 24, 2021 @06:09AM (#29672613)
>That's very high. The family price equates to 16 Office 365 Family seats, which includes 16TB of cloud storage.

Offtopic: That must be one of the best deals on online storage Excluding Google's enterprise unlimited storage option which always felt like they could pull the rug under you any day.

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Re:The Google home page is 500K by forgotmyoldname on Friday December 24, 2021 @02:11AM (#29671140)
Every product in the world sells itself as being as cheap as a cup of coffee or a cup of tea "so just pay it, cheapo". If that excuse actually worked, nobody would be drinking tea or coffee because we'd have spent our money on random apps and services.

It's necessary to prove an app brings more joy than a good $5 drink does--most products fail to cross that threshold.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by harles on Friday December 24, 2021 @03:14AM (#29671484)
I find such pitches more a reminder that we’ve somehow decided $5 is an acceptable price for a cup of flavored and slightly chemically enhanced water.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by piaste on Friday December 24, 2021 @04:17AM (#29671913)
You're not paying $5 for the cup. You're paying $5 for the guy making it for you at a moment's notice, for the warm couch to sit in while you drink it, and for the other guy who comes after you leave and cleans after you.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by forgotmyoldname on Friday December 24, 2021 @03:26AM (#29671558)
People have been paying money for food and beverages forever. The cost of labor is a big factor in it. It's the foundation of the economy.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by eitland on Friday December 24, 2021 @04:34AM (#29672040)
Good point and I've also written elsewhere about subscription exhaustion or something like that (I think I had a better term for it then).

I think I wrote something like "if a product requires a subscription I don't consider it unless it replaces another subscription - or is so good that it is obviously worth it".

Well, for me this is the second category: For me Kagi is a fantastic deal at $10 (although I hesitate to say it since it probably means they'll end up charging more ;-)

Re:The Google home page is 500K by burrows on Friday December 24, 2021 @05:00AM (#29672204)
Agreed, most apps are useless to most people, just like most people don’t read most books. And I’m not recommending the comparison to a cup of coffee as marketing.

For me there is absolutely no difference in paying $1/month and $10/month for a daily driver search engine and I’m letting everyone know this to establish dominance over OP.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by dangus on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:17AM (#29670851)
That's $130,000 in 30 years if invested at a 6% annual return, compounded daily.

In other words, shave off a year of your career at least and retire instead.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by hetspookjee on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:29AM (#29670905)
I get that you live in a tent and eat peanuts and lentils everyday with water? Imagine if you calculate your savings with this lifestyle. You could retire a decade before everyone else!
Re:The Google home page is 500K by dangus on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:36AM (#29670954)
No, I don't live in a tent, not at all! I have a gym membership that costs my family $500 a month. But, when we go there, we get unlimited classes, a pool, hot tub, sauna, steam sauna – it's good for our physical well-being, and it acts as extra rented real estate. They offer an hour of child care included per visit, so it's a break from parenting while we work out.

$5 tea or coffee is just flavored water that I can make at home for 50 cents and minimal effort.

Obviously, to each their own, but $5 tea was a bad example.

And a $10/month search engine is a bad deal when ad blockers are free.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by rolisz on Friday December 24, 2021 @02:59AM (#29671416)
I've been using Kagi for a couple of weeks now and I love it. It's not just that there are no ads, but at least for programming, the first page is not stuffed with weird spammy sites that scrape Stackoverflow and Github Issues, like it is on Google nowadays.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by feffe on Friday December 24, 2021 @06:15AM (#29672640)
Add blockers would not make the result better though. For me google is useless nowadays. If a search engine surfice that truly find what I'm looking for I'll pay $10/month for it but I think the price may be too much for those that don't care as much about the search result quality.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by eitland on Friday December 24, 2021 @05:58AM (#29672552)
> And a $10/month search engine is a bad deal when ad blockers are free.

Even if Google was completely free and didn't track me and didn't insult me with their ad matching, paying $10 a month for results that are in another league is fine with me.

Re:The Google home page is 500K by slickdork on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:37AM (#29670969)
You just described lean fire, which is a thing some people do.
Re:The Google home page is 500K by burrows on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:48AM (#29671025)
If I still haven’t beaten the game of life or cracked the buried treasure chest or rescued the sultry wicked smaht blonde princess from the tower of doom thirty years from now safe to say it isn’t happening and I’ll just seppuku. But until then I’m going to drink tea in cafes and mumble about nihilism.
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Re:The Google home page is 500K by dangus on Friday December 24, 2021 @01:34AM (#29670942)
Just an example! Being frugal is a balance, because if you go too far on the extreme of that spectrum you end up doing really crazy stuff to save money, and then die and leave your stash to your next of kin. That's certainly not what I'm advocating for!

Still, $5 for a cup of tea is a really terrible example because it's an incredible waste – tea is very easy to make. Technically, when you buy some tea somewhere else you're wasting time rather than saving it, since an electric kettle is much faster.

A mildly better example: at least when you pay $5 for a Starbucks nitro cold brew, you're getting something that isn't realistically available at home (unless you want to buy/clean/store/operate a nitrogen coffee kegerator).

$10/month for a search engine...I mean, you can just block ads and trackers for free. Microsoft literally pays you money to use their search engine. It's not like streaming services where paying for ad removal saves you time.