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Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by clouddrover on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @11:50PM (#29658769)
> Did they want to protect themselves before alerting anyone?

Probably yes.

> Did they want to use this to infiltrate others?

Also probably yes.

The NSA does the same thing. They stockpile security vulnerabilities and selectively tell the software vendors about some of them. They like to keep the "high value" vulnerabilities to themselves for use in exploits.

The WannaCry ransomware (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry_ransomware_attack and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EternalBlue) did worldwide economic damage and was built on an NSA developed exploit. The NSA knew about this vulnerability in Windows for years and never told Microsoft.

Unfortunately all intelligence agencies everywhere will continue to take this cowboy approach. Until we can get these bad actors under control, their constant undermining of internet infrastructure will continue to hinder efforts to improve internet security.

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by iszomer on Thursday December 23, 2021 @06:33AM (#29660858)
This gave me a good chuckle.

* Google Project Zero researcher: "we found a bug!"

* NSA (internally): "Damnit, scratch that one off the list boys.."

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by ButtSpark69 on Thursday December 23, 2021 @12:28AM (#29658961)
It's not the same thing to develop and keep an exploit for yourself, as it is to require the public companies in your country to report the important bugs they find while effectively also under a temporary gag order. They are super different things.
Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by clouddrover on Thursday December 23, 2021 @12:35AM (#29658987)
The super result is super the same: more vulnerabilities exploited for longer.
Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by mlyle on Thursday December 23, 2021 @12:42AM (#29659017)
Surely you can see there's some difference in magnitude here, right? Which one does it more?

And even if the end result has some overlap, there's a bit of an ethical difference between:

* developing an exploit that you keep quiet

* preventing others from talking about exploits they discover

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by clouddrover on Thursday December 23, 2021 @12:48AM (#29659035)
Surely you can see that they're all bad actors, undermining the software and infrastructure that we all use, putting our systems and our data at risk through their grubby actions and even their grubby inaction, right?

I don't care which bunch of spies does it more. I don't want spies doing it at all.

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by mlyle on Thursday December 23, 2021 @01:03AM (#29659116)
> and even their grubby inaction, right?

Yah, I guess by not searching for new exploits tonight for public disclosure, I'm putting the entire software world marginally more at risk by "grubby inaction."

> I don't care which bunch of spies does it more. I don't want spies doing it at all.

I care: some bad actors in my government vs. forcing an entire massive economy to participate in bad actions will have massively different magnitudes of effect.

There's always going to be bad actors, but preventing 15% of the world's population from being good actors surely is a pretty significant thing.

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by mthoms on Thursday December 23, 2021 @12:45AM (#29659022)
Ethically, it’s not the same.
Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by clouddrover on Thursday December 23, 2021 @01:51AM (#29659362)
There's nothing ethical about leaving your nation's infrastructure vulnerable to attack just because you want to indulge in the boy's own adventure of attacking the infrastructure of other nations.

It's not ethical. It's not professional. It's school boy stuff.

Re:Apache Log4j bug: China’s industry ministry pulls support... by mthoms on Thursday December 23, 2021 @11:06AM (#29663154)
Whoa, I think we're on the same team. I was saying it's not ethical to tell only your gov't about the exploit, and not your customers.