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Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by rgrieselhuber on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @08:28PM (#29644469)
One question I’d ask is why there would be an inherent conflict between superior technology and harmony with nature?
Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by photochemsyn on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @08:55PM (#29644690)
There's no inherent reason superior technology would lead to the destabilization of an ecosystem (aka 'harmony with nature'). A good example is the introduction of the hunting rifle to Inuit culture, as I understand it. Prior to this hunting near the Arctic Circle was a far more difficult endeavor, as sneaking up on seals and caribou is not easy even with a high skill level. As a result, famine became much less common and hunting took much less time.

Now, if the Inuit had tried to get extremely wealthy by using their rifles to hunt seals and caribou as the basis of a large and ever-growing export industry, they'd have indeed destabilized the ecosystem and there would have been a collapse in the population of seals and caribou, as seen with European hunters of wildlife in North America with beavers and bison and passenger pigeons. If that had happened, the Inuit themselves would most likely have followed the local animals into extinction.

[edit] Note with bison, there was a deliberate extermination policy pursued by the US government as a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program). This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.

Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by germinalphrase on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @12:01AM (#29645761)
“ This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.”

At least for beaver, free and ecological illiteracy does paint most of the picture (though, in fairness, ‘extermination’ may be too strong)

Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by skrebbel on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:11AM (#29646359)
> a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program)

Do you have any references about this? It's the first time I heard of it and googling for "the genocidal starvation program" only gets me hits on that other genocidal starvation program, the Holodomor.

Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by bawolff on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:33AM (#29646464)
Wikipedia seems to cite: Isenberg. The Destruction of the Bison. pp. 136–7, 151–2.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th_century_bis...

Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by s7r on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @03:33AM (#29646840)
The book 'Our History Is the Future' by Nick Estes goes into detail on this.

Specifically:

The US army and settlers moving West executed buffalo because Indigenous peoples in the Great Plains depended on them. 'Every dead buffalo is a dead Indian' is one of the quotes from the time. The army/settlers would also poison the buffalo carcasses so Indigenous people couldn't eat from the dead carcass, and as a consequence, other animals in the environment (e.g. wolves) couldn't eat the meat either and likewise suffered, and further reduced the food supply.

This took place after the 1868 treaty of the Black Hills. So the US signed a treaty acknowledging Indigenous land and sovereignty. And then started a genocidal campaign, against the people they just signed the treaty with -- tresspassing on treaty defined land to do so and kill the buffalo. The Supreme Court acknolwedged the history of these wrongdoings in a ruling in 1980, awarding financial compensation to the Indigenous peoples -- however the Indigenous plaintiffs did not want monetary awards, they sought rematriation of their stolen land and the upholding of their rights under the 1868 treaty. The battles to uphold those treaty rights continue to this day.

(In 2007, the UN ratified the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which affirms Indigeous claim to treaty rights such as the 1868 Black Hills treaty (albeit in a 'non-binding' way). The declaration has now been ratified by all UN member nations -- US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand originally held out for several years -- and many groups are now operating with that document as a legal/political framework and justification to take their treaty and Indigenous rights cases forward.)

Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by kmt-lnh on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:58AM (#29646623)
Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by smsm42 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @08:53PM (#29644681)
It's not inherent, but having a powerful technology you understand may tempt you into applying it to things you don't understand to force them be more understandable. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it does not, and one has to have a measure of humility, so that having a powerful hammer not to start treating everything as a nail. European civilization, unfortunately, fell into this failure mode not once (maybe others too, we just know about European failures the most). We still can observe it in hi-tech where "we just add some ML and big data to it and it's solved" led people astray many times. Sometimes it worked, surely, but sometimes the amount of subject domain knowledge required to deal with the problem was vastly underestimated. One example just from recent days is the Zillow fiasco. It doesn't have to be on the planet Pandora, we can see it everywhere, both in history and around us right now.
Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by noisy_boy on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @08:48PM (#29644642)
I think that with sufficiently advanced technology, there would be immense understanding of nature resulting in elimination of any need to be in conflict with the nature because one would simply solve their needs by enveloping or integrating with nature instead of going against it.
Re:Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans by jollybean on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @09:20PM (#29644843)
Yes, but 'Enough Tech and Knowledge to do Whatever Whenever at Planetary Sale' ... that's a million years away.

In the meantime, to answer the OP's question, the issue is that there is an inflection point at which man has enough tech to start changing nature, by disrupting parts of those systems.

That's probably huge distinction between most of Europe/Asia and the rest of the world in the Columbian era.

Aboriginals cultures mostly did not have the ability to shape the land (and where they had they tech, they did disrupt). Forget narratives one way or the other - they were by and large 'way behind'. And things took a an even bigger, massive jump when we harnessed fossil fuels.

The glamorization of 'In Concert With Nature' is I think mostly just the fact that they didn't have the power to do anything otherwise.