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Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by igammarays on Monday December 20, 2021 @03:03AM (#29622435)
All of these discussions seem to hinge on the assumption that intelligence arises spontaneously from nature given the "right" conditions, but that is an unproven and statistically unlikely assumption [1]. Just as a random byte generator will statistically never output a full featured operating system within the age of the universe (and certainly nothing resembling elegant source code), so are any random chemical/biological/physical processes statistically unlikely to ever spontaneously lead to intelligent life within the age of the universe. Intelligence is created by intelligence, nothing else. Call it "God" or whatever you wish, but it doesn't arise out of randomness, unless the randomness is constrained into highly structured output, which requires intelligence to do.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by messe on Monday December 20, 2021 @06:24AM (#29623607)
"Your theory that the sun is the centre of the solar system, and the earth is a ball which rotates around it has a very convincing ring to it, Mr. James, but it's wrong. I've got a better theory," said the little old lady.

"And what is that, madam?" inquired James politely.

"That we live on a crust of earth which is on the back of a giant turtle."

Not wishing to demolish this absurd little theory by bringing to bear the masses of scientific evidence he had at his command, James decided to gently dissuade his opponent by making her see some of the inadequacies of her position.

"If your theory is correct, madam," he asked, "what does this turtle stand on?"

"You're a very clever man, Mr. James, and that's a very good question," replied the little old lady, "but I have an answer to it. And it's this: The first turtle stands on the back of a second, far larger, turtle, who stands directly under him."

"But what does this second turtle stand on?" persisted James patiently.

To this, the little old lady crowed triumphantly, "It's no use, Mr. James—it's turtles all the way down."

— J. R. Ross, Constraints on Variables in Syntax, 1967

Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by igammarays on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:21AM (#29634581)
This joke actually highlights the utter ludicrousness of a scientific-rational explanation of the universe without God. Because as long as you keep searching for "phenomena" to explain existence, the question remains, what caused that phenomena. But "God" is a sort of final answer to the problem, a realization that causation has to stop somewhere, and wherever it stops, that is God.
Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by rollo on Monday December 20, 2021 @05:33AM (#29623217)
Since it's everything but random, given the strong, strong selection pressure, what you wrote misses the point completely. And the argument based on that is completely meaningless as well.
Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by igammarays on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:14AM (#29634539)
What creates that selection pressure?
Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by GoblinSlayer on Monday December 20, 2021 @07:54AM (#29624352)
What counts as intelligence though? Worms? Fish? Cats? Apes? Humans?
Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by igammarays on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:13AM (#29634535)
Why not all of them? I never said intelligence was exclusive to humans.
Re:The timing of evolutionary transitions suggests intellige... by ncmncm on Friday December 24, 2021 @07:39PM (#29679186)
They're Made out of Meat!