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Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by gedy on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:11AM (#29614511)
Yeah I don't see the point or value at this stage. They control their media tightly, and if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care. They've proven they don't need Taiwan and vice versa.
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by mark_l_watson on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:28AM (#29614646)
+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also.

A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty.

It is just their current government that I don’t like.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by imiric on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:42AM (#29615402)
Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power.

The people of China choose to allow CCP to run their country. If they were so different ideologically the CCP would no longer exist. Countries with orders of magnitude less people struggle to remain united. The fact 1.4 billion people can be represented by the same political party speaks to the strong ideological ties that are shared by most Chinese people. I would argue that those ideologies were implanted by decades of brainwashing and totalitarianism, but how it was achieved doesn't change that fact.

So, yes, your experience and likely many others' is with good people. Countries are not exclusively bad or good. We can recognize those good traits that China has as a nation.

But it would be wrong to also not criticize the bad aspects, and sweep them under the rug as the CCP constantly tries to do. The rampant economic and moral corruption, overfishing of world's waters and general disregard for animal life and nature, disregard for human life, widespread racism and xenophobia, isolationism, etc.

These are not only governmental issues, but part of the modern Chinese culture that taints whatever good aspects we can celebrate.

Undoubtedly comparisons to the US will be made, but at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. The US government will persecute whistleblowers for airing its dirty laundry, but we've known that for decades.

I fear a world where the dominant superpower has such a culture and is closed to criticism—not only because of its oppressive government, but because of its people.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by mark_l_watson on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:48AM (#29615495)
Seriously, I wish I had your optimism that governments reflect the people. I really do.

In my worldview, and I am likely at least partially wrong, I think that almost all governments are totally controlled by corporate and elite interests - same as news media.

I do try to not get too upset by this, and I just try to be a decent person. Really, I am just an average person so what else can I do?

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by imiric on Sunday December 19, 2021 @04:08PM (#29618433)
Even if I'm wrong and governments don't reflect the people, my main point is that there are many issues with Chinese culture itself that should be criticized. This common phrase of "I don't like the Chinese government but I like the people" as a way to not appear xenophobic is what I'm arguing against. We definitely should be able to criticize wrong cultural behavior, and China has plenty of that.
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by tjalfi on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:45PM (#29618191)
> Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power.

This seems closer to the mandate of heaven[0] than an explanation of how governments work or why they are overthrown.

Here's another explanation based on The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith. The 18 minute video The Rules for Rulers[1] has a great summary of the principles from this book.

Dictators and elected representatives have the same problem; they must keep control of key supporters and reward them in order to remain in power.

Dictatorships have only a few key supporters - heads of the army, secret police, treasury, etc. Popular support isn't required; if these people are content with your rule, you will remain in power. If they aren't, you will be replaced.

Democracies have many more key supporters; we normally call them voting blocs - suburban voters, Hispanic voters, non-college voters, evangelic Protestants, etc. Popular support from these groups is required and this difference is why democratic governments change between parties so often.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by CRConrad on Thursday December 23, 2021 @06:18PM (#29667724)
> at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly,

Yup.

> without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments.

Eh... No, usually not.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by adrian_b on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:43PM (#29616169)
There is some truth in what you say that even in a dictatorship the government needs the support of some people to remain in power.

The problem is that it is enough for only a small minority to support the government for it to keep the power forever.

I have been born in a country occupied by communists and there for many decades an overwhelming majority of the people wished that the current government would be deleted, but nobody could do anything.

It is hard to estimate how many people supported the government, but it is very unlikely that they were more than 5% of the total population.

Nevertheless, that was enough to make impossible to organize any kind of opposition against the government because any attempt would be reported by informers and the initiators would be eliminated before being able to do any action.

Maybe in China there is a majority that supports the CCP, but that certainly is not a rule in dictatorships.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by Galanwe on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:29AM (#29614658)
> if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care

Not at all.

For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US.

People in the west see Taiwan as a separate country that China tries to forcibly absorb.

People in mainland see Taiwan as a region of China that tries to be independent.

Also, there is a lot of eyes on the Taiwan case from mainlanders because other regions of China are seen as potential underdogs for independence, due to cultural heritage (and wealth), such as Shangai.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by dustintrex on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:40AM (#29614735)
And the real shame is that nobody seems to care what the people in Taiwan themselves want. (Which, overwhelmingly, is to be independent and free to go their own way.)
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by jessaustin on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:02AM (#29614902)
For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US.

Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion.

That doesn't mean it would be easy. Much as was seen in the original USA annexation of Hawai'i, it is very common for interested parties to create violence where none naturally exists.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by ericmay on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:47AM (#29615473)
> Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion.

Also Midwest/Great Lakes and I’m not sure about that. I know I’d be pretty upset about it just as I would be if Texas tried to seriously secede or similar. I wonder what a poll would show? I hadn’t thought about Hawaii like you have but it would be interesting.

I was stationed there too. It felt like America on an island. It was weird.

The Us would never let it happen though. Too strategically important

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by gorgoiler on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:20PM (#29615871)
You might if Fort Knox was in Oahu.

Taiwan still has 400+ tonnes of gold the Guomindang took with them on their way out. I have no idea if good reserves have any relevance in this century but it’s just one part of the long term animosity.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by sudosysgen on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:08AM (#29614969)
The issue is that Taiwan is military necessary. If the US is allowed an outpost there they will use the encirclement to threaten China's security.
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by mthoms on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:55PM (#29616319)
That’s a pretty bold statement. When has the US ever threatened China’s internal security?
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by sudosysgen on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:04PM (#29616413)
Did you forget the Cold War before Nixon? The Korean War? Even today various officials in the US military are discussion how best to militarily contain China.
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by mthoms on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:17PM (#29616583)
Which of those relates to Chinese internal security?

In other words - aside from containing Chinese/Communist external influence, when has the US threatened China?

Note: I'm not justifying or condemning any of those "external" actions by the US, I'm just curious if you can illustrate a past or ongoing threat to China proper?

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by GekkePrutser on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:45PM (#29616194)
> People in mainland see Taiwan as a region of China that tries to be independent.

They've been 'trying' pretty successfully since 1949 :) Maybe it's time to just cut your losses instead of trying to rebuild the past. You can pretend they're just a territory that wants independence but really the PRC has had no control over it for 72 years.

Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by carapace on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:26AM (#29615184)
FWIW in re: the US and Hawaii, a more appropriate metaphor would be China and Tibet.
Re:Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China by manquer on Sunday December 19, 2021 @10:25AM (#29614623)
Control of South China sea is far too important for china to ignore Taiwan, also Taiwan's dominance in chip design/manufacturing would give china enormous influence over the world.