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Re:The Web3 Fraud by toomuchtodo on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:37PM (#29587806)
Hot take: The proponents of decentralized systems feel disenfranchised by those who own and govern centralized systems, therefore decentralized systems are their way around what they consider injustice. It is a grasp for control and power where they feel they have none. They don’t feel they have a seat at the table, so they argue for building their own table, which is, naturally, “superior” to the existing table (why would you use it if it wasn’t superior?).

It’s not about “open finance” versus “centralized finance”, it’s about “our finance” vs “their finance”, our ledgers versus their databases. This is no different than Silicon Valley starting as David and turning into West Coast Goliath, wrestling with the East Coast Hegemony for status and power.

I get the sentiment, but code doesn’t fix people problems. I am not without curiosity, but web3 still has much work to do to show both novel and meaningful use cases.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by jacoblambda on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:54PM (#29587925)
While you are undoubtedly correct to some extent, there's also the entire academic side of decentralised systems which is more about solving the our (plural) system vs their (singular) system problem. The same tech that makes these complex decentralised services work also often functions just as well if not better (performance wise) in federated/centralised contexts.

These decentralised systems are a natural abstraction for so many different types of problems and systems. If you leverage them you can still get high performance systems in a centralised manner but the hard work making those systems resilient, localised, and highly available has already been solved. If you design your systems on top of this technical layer you can leverage the benefits without the costs of centralisation for the most part.

The other academic argument to be made is that this is basically the only industry that is meaningfully pushing cryptography forwards (IMHO). Concepts like Functional Encryption, Fully Homomorphic Encryption, Secure Multi-Party Computation, and Zero Knowledge Proof Systems have been primarily funded by cryptocurrency research and towards the application in decentralised zero trust systems (which are basically the "ideal" environment for exploring cryptography and game theoretic technologies).

Code doesn't fix people problems but it can augment existing systems and letting those systems evolve to their logical conclusions is a worthwhile endeavour.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by derangedHorse on Friday December 17, 2021 @08:48AM (#29592014)
I would say it’s about choice, not an “our finance” vs “their finance” (at least not primarily). I don’t think the traditional finance systems needs to be overthrown but I do think people have a right to choose an alternative open system if they choose. If it was an “our finance” vs “their finance” problem, people could just build a new centralized system without the properties offered by the blockchain.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by webmaven on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:21PM (#29595189)
> If it was an “our finance” vs “their finance” problem, people could just build a new centralized system without the properties offered by the blockchain.

Well, they did. They pretty much all failed or were made to fail (DigiCash[0], Flooz, e-gold, etc.) or were subsumed into the existing system (eg. PayPal).

As far as I can tell, the big picture hope this time around is that the existing system will be subsumed into one or more successful cryptocurrencies, rather than the other way around (which defeats the decentralization).

[0] DigiCash was an anonymous, nominally distributed, system, which is a different set of properties than current cryptocurrencies.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by throwaway_2009 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:57PM (#29587950)
Nah, it's about censorship-free finance vs censorable finance.

If not for AML, KYC and basically the fact you just can't really use cash any more in significant sums for anything we wouldn't have had to bother.

I have 200,000 bitcoin, or maybe I have 0.2, no-one knows other than me. Good.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by kabes on Friday December 17, 2021 @01:05AM (#29588471)
How is it censorship free? The government could decide to make Bitcoin illegal. Sure, you could move it to another country without these laws or do things illegally, but that's no different for cash and the issues you mention.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by throwaway_2009 on Friday December 17, 2021 @10:51AM (#29593824)
It is censorship free because I can send you a million bitcoin and no-one can stop us without physical force.

The same is far from being true via other means such as the legacy banking system or cash. I mean, you can try and send a briefcase full of notes in the post cross-border, it might work, I wouldn't know or care to try.

Obviously the Government can attempt to, or pass laws, to censor anything at any time for any reason. In my country it was illegal for me to visit family for about 6 months this/last year, there's nothing special about Bitcoin, power will attempt to fuck with you simply because they can.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by Nursie on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:19AM (#29588134)
KYC and AML are considered positives by most people, being great ways to cut down on fraud, make banking hard for criminal enterprises etc etc.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by ashtonkem on Friday December 17, 2021 @02:14AM (#29588935)
Also, KYC and AML are mandatory the moment you actually interact with the regular US banking system or USD at all. So any place where you can buy crypto or sell it is going to do KYC and AML on you, including asking uncomfortable questions if your behavior looks suspicious.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by miracle2k on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:29AM (#29588199)
Legislation requiring a backdoor in e2e encryption, such as WhatsApp, is also considered a positive by most people even now, but wait after it's been in place for 10 years, it will be as universally unquestioned as KYC or AML policies.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by Nursie on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:49AM (#29588345)
I don't think that's an argument against KYC and AML, personally.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by miracle2k on Friday December 17, 2021 @04:40AM (#29589948)
Yes, it's more not an argument, merely an invitation to consider the parallels. It is of course possible to embrace both e2e encryption and KYC.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by systemvoltage on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:48PM (#29587879)
I think this is a toxic way to look at it. Casting it as "they", you're implicitly condoning partisanship/tribalism and putting people into bins. Discussions around this would be guaranteed to be vile and full of hatred. Not just from "your" side, but "they" will also see you in the same way.

As technologists, we ought to be better than this. Think about this like we do with on-prem vs cloud. It is decentralization vs. centralization, but far more muted and less political. We should approach this with a mature contemplation, not cheap tribalism.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by toomuchtodo on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:51PM (#29587903)
Crypto isn’t about technology. It’s about wealth and power (literally!) on top of a (slow) distributed database.

As technologists, we ought to recognize the difference and see the forests for the trees. As a technologist, I cannot unsee the patterns nor look away.

I’m sure you’d find similar musings in 2600 or Phrack decades ago.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by systemvoltage on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:56PM (#29587940)
I am not talking about Crypto (I presume you mean crypto currencies). I am talking about technologies that enable centralization vs. decentralization.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by toomuchtodo on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:59PM (#29587967)
I’m am specially speaking about blockchains, cryptocurrencies, NFTs, and the like, not IPFS, DHTs, or improvements to existing internet technologies (mutable torrents, webtorrent) to support decentralized storage, discovery, or name resolution. The “web3” nomenclature throws it all together, which is annoying. DeFi =! Dweb
Re:The Web3 Fraud by selestify on Friday December 17, 2021 @01:23AM (#29588582)
What's the difference between the first group of technologies you mention, and the second, other than the fact that a large group of investors has piled onto the first, whereas the second is basically non-profit? Do you refuse to acknowledge the value-add to decentralization that the first group brings?
Re:The Web3 Fraud by smoldesu on Friday December 17, 2021 @01:38AM (#29588702)
The difference is that decentralization doesn't have a system of inequality built into it's core principles. Web3 inherantly and explicitly refers to things that integrate with blockchain technologies, and more often than not, cryptocurrency. Of course investors would be more interested in a platform where their financial superiority carries over, it lets them game the system unlike an ambiguous decentralized protocol.

> Do you refuse to acknowledge the value-add to decentralization that the first group brings?

Decentralization needs the blockchain less than the blockchain needs decentralization.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by selestify on Friday December 17, 2021 @01:45AM (#29588753)
> Of course investors would be more interested in a platform where their financial superiority carries over, it lets them game the system unlike an ambiguous decentralized protocol.

Short of a worldwide communist revolution, that's just going to continue to be the case for any up and coming technologies that make money. Who benefitted most from the enormous gains in tech stocks over the last 25 years? I'll wager it isn't the minimum wage employees.

> Decentralization needs the blockchain less than the blockchain needs decentralization.

Name for me any other way of transferring money to a stranger over the internet in a decentralized fashion. Name for me any other way of executing Turing complete code in a censorship-resistant fashion. These are two big parts of decentralization that crypto solves. Do you refuse to acknowledge that?

There's a reason the Silk Road only appeared after Bitcoin came on the scene. Tor's been around a long time, PGP's been around a long time, but Bitcoin was the missing puzzle piece. I'm not saying drugs are good, I'm just saying decentralization tech didn't reach the level required to implement Silk Road before crypto came on the scene.

Re:The Web3 Fraud by systemvoltage on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:08AM (#29588047)
I feel the same as you do about cryptocurrencies and NFTs.
Re:The Web3 Fraud by toomuchtodo on Friday December 17, 2021 @12:16AM (#29588111)
My apologies for talking past each other.