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Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by kaba0 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:27AM (#29549490)
I think we should differentiate between single-use programs and those that are more of an investment. Like, my torrent client should not be too clever as I will use it haphazardly with way too much time between starts, so anything I should memorize about it will likely be forgotten by the next time.

But on the other hand, things like photoshop, blender and even microsoft word and general uis absolutely fall into the investment category. You have no chance to discover by accident how to create a complex scene in blender for example — “pros” will always have new tricks for you. These are very complex programs where even your hierarchical menus would overflow with info — so now you have context-dependent right clicks bringing out menus not available otherwise. And I think it is a really great design, originating from the very first GUIs! But it only makes sense for us because we have already learned over the years/decades that right clicking is a cool trick oftentimes providing more functionality. It is a cross-program convention. While available on the menu bar, alt+tab is also not an instinctual thing to press, we had to learn that as well.

Now phones did have to reinvent many things and whether we like it or not, newer generations’ first instinct will be touch based, not mouse cursor based. I also see no evil in trying to create UXes that could potentially benefit from both touch and cursor-based usage. These new conventions has to be created though and hopefully one standardish way will emerge.

Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by laumars on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @05:46AM (#29550288)
> I think we should differentiate between single-use programs and those that are more of an investment.

No you shouldn’t. What might be single use for Bob might be a daily driver for Bev.

The Ribbon bar is a great example of that. It’s targeting people who use applications daily but I only use Word or Excel sporadically and really miss the old menus and toolbars. But there’s going to be tools I use daily that others might only use sporadically.

Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by jrm4 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @10:00AM (#29552229)
If only there were a way to let Bob use what Bob likes and Bev use what Bev likes? Like giving people options? Like setting up a nice default, but also providing a path for individuals who want to change things in a meaningful way if they choose?

I'm sorry, but it's REALLY hard to not be snarky about this. Apple has absolutely suckered the world into thinking that "nice default interface" and "ability to change your interface" are somehow zero-sum, and there is no reason for this to be the case.

This deficient thinking has even wormed it's way into Linux, look at the current direction of GNOME. Sigh.

Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by laumars on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:55PM (#29558494)
I don’t have an issue with Linux DEs behaving like this because you have the freedom to install other WM and DEs.
Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by jrm4 on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @02:54PM (#29570797)
I have a problem with GNOME specifically because it changed courses so drastically; it was open and friendly and then by GNOME 3 decided not to be. Bit of a bait-and-switch in my opinion.
Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by laumars on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @03:15PM (#29571048)
Project authors need to have the ability to own the project that author if there’s any hope of it growing and evolving with the times. We might not always agree with the leadership in a particular project but as like as it is open source that’s not a problem as anyone can then fork it and add their own vision to the fork. Which is precisely what happened with GNOME.

As an author of FOSS software myself, I’d quit in a heartbeat if someone told me I wasn’t allowed to make my own decisions about my own projects.

Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by kaba0 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @06:07AM (#29550411)
The ribbon bar is much more directed at discoverability for beginners, while the old design corresponds to features hidden behind menus under menus. So you being a sporadic user would (should) fare better with the Ribbon bar, it’s just probably that you remember the older version and change is painful.
Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by laumars on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @06:38AM (#29550585)
It’s not the change that’s the issue. It’s the lack of context for what icons do without clicking them. Text offers that context.

But maybe the ribbon wasn’t the best example of my earlier point about the UI needs of sporadic users vs regular users. Or maybe it illustrates the point really we’ll but the context should be casual users vs power users rather than the frequency of usage?

Re:Nextspace: a desktop environment that brings a NeXTSTEP l... by jrm4 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @12:04PM (#29554059)
You might be right. You might be wrong. I have no clue. And it doesn't matter a whit.

The point is - LET PEOPLE CHOOSE. Apple and Windows generally do not do this, Linux does. Or at least used to; this is why I'm actively hostile to things like GNOME getting more popular.