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Re:How do you fix a stroad? by calt on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:24PM (#29505373)
> That or just let car people (majority) have these areas that are good for cars and

The idea is that a well planned city/suburb will turn car people into people that also enjoy safely not using a car some of the time.

> let the anti car people have their crowded little streets with no parking elsewhere.

Bleh. Such an us vs them mentality. I'm suspicious of cars because I have literally gotten hit by them while cycling (edit: multiple times, thank you very much). I'm not "anti car."

Try getting hit by 2 tons of metal and see how that makes you feel about safe infrastructure.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:32PM (#29505429)
> Bleh. Such an us vs them mentality.

Doesn't the "us vs. them" mentality come from the fact that most of Strong Towns' ideas will make life worse for everyone who needs to drive, without giving most of them an alternative to driving?

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by Rendello on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:34PM (#29505447)
> Strong Towns' ideas will make life worse for anyone who drives into the city, with basically no advantages for them, and without creating a viable alternative to driving for most of them?

That's not necessarily a given:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by calt on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:41PM (#29505494)
TLDW: A city that is less reliant on cars actually reduces congestion and makes it more pleasant to drive in a city.

Fewer cars on the road means less competition.

Bike lanes have more capacity to move people.

Well designed intersections and bike lanes mean that you aren't competing against cyclists and pedestrians for road space you're coexisting along just fine.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by davidrhunt on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:45PM (#29505516)
I was just tracking down this exact link. Thanks for sharing.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by ben-schaaf on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:41PM (#29505492)
The whole point is to provide better alternatives to driving such that most people don't need to drive. Having better alternatives to driving also makes driving better as you get less congestion, licensing standards can be raised, there's more money for road maintenance, well designed roads are simply better to drive on, etc.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:18PM (#29505705)
> such that most people don't need to drive

I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by beaconstudios on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:28PM (#29505778)
Urbanists are extremely critical of the type of zoning that plonks suburbs in the middle of nowhere away from cities too. "R1 Zone" is practically a swear word.

Mixed-use zoning is much more effective. We do this in Europe, it's pretty nice being able to cycle to work and walk to the shops (not that I cycle to work personally, but almost all my jobs have been within cycling range).

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:38PM (#29505835)
But those suburbs already exist. What should we do for all of the people who already live in them? (And keep in mind that there's usually a good reason that people chose to not just live in an inner city in the first place.)
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by athrun on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:14PM (#29506312)
Strong Town's argument is that some of these suburbs will be successful in encouraging mixed-use development and in doing so will expand their tax bases. But most of the others will fail and decline.

ST are quite explicit that they mostly don't think that retrofitting suburbs should be a focus, because they believe that most of these will go bankrupt anyway, given a sufficient amount of time (because of too much infrastructure liability compared to the tax base), and indeed this is starting to happen all across the US. Hence their focus on areas with a solid core already, that should then be strengthened and encouraged to expand organically from there.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:42AM (#29507083)
But that's just it. If someone likes suburban living, and your family home is in a suburb, how do you think they'd feel about something like "suburbs are probably all going to fail anyway, so let's do a bunch of things that will definitely and quickly make them fail, and then await the glorious day when your house gets torn down and replaced by apartments, and your neighborhood becomes a replica of the inner city"?
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by jeddy3 on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:57AM (#29507874)
I don't understand your reasoning.

The only thing ST says here is "let existing suburbs be what they are", which sounds like what you want as well.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Friday December 10, 2021 @09:39AM (#29510352)
Even if they're not directly changing the suburbs with this proposal, the changes they want made to the city will make life worse for people who go there from the suburbs.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by copo233 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:29PM (#29505783)
That's what commuter light rail is for, is Strong Towns against that?
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:37PM (#29505827)
Sure, I'll acknowledge that that could fix this problem. My complaint then becomes that they want to make everywhere hostile to drivers before commuter light rail gets built, when there's a chance that it never will.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by copo233 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:51PM (#29505905)
I mean, if you're in a growing city and you do nothing, things will eventually get shitty for suburban commuters. At that point, you might have a choice between expanding the road system or building the rail.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Friday December 10, 2021 @12:29AM (#29506737)
Okay, but let's not reduce the capacity of the road system in the meantime.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by jcranmer on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:33PM (#29505808)
Bus systems can work well to move commuters to rail-based mass-transit that bring them into the city. If the suburbs sprawl too far out, you can also plop down park-and-rides at the terminal stations of the mass transit system.

Why do you specifically need to drive and park at the exact location you're going to, especially when the land cost of the storage place of your empty car is prohibitively expensive (as they tend to be in urban CBDs)?

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by sokoloff on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:05PM (#29505986)
I have no need to park my car at any particular place. I do have a need to have the commuting experience be safe, reasonably convenient/predictable, and time-efficient.

I live in Cambridge on the Boston subway system. It’s probably (barely) in the top 5 in the US and it sucks compared to European cities I’ve visited or lived in.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:40PM (#29505847)
In places that have good mass transit for their suburbs, sure. But what about all of the places that don't?

Because sometimes I have to go to work in weather conditions like hailstorms, thunderstorms, or freezing rain.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by danny_codes on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:26PM (#29506383)
I recommend watching through the "Not Just Bikes" back catalog.

He has a bunch of videos that address common complaints that people who've only known car-dependent lifestyles bring up.

Here's a good example of how to design functional bicycle infrastructure for a seemingly hostile climate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:58AM (#29507194)
Build mass transit. It's one of the best ways to increase economic activity.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by josephcsible on Friday December 10, 2021 @09:44AM (#29510413)
I'm fine with this, but I don't like the plan of making it harder to drive first, and then maybe later adding an alternative.
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by tylermenezes on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:27AM (#29507701)
Most of strong towns's ideas come down to making it legal to build with anything except stroads. Give people options instead of forcing it on everyone except the most wealthy who can afford a house in the pre-car cities.
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Re:How do you fix a stroad? by Scott_Sanderson on Friday December 10, 2021 @12:29AM (#29506736)
Car culture apology bullshit. Why aren't there safe places for bikes and peds on those roads too? Why should cars have all the space to the point where it is practically suicidal to be outside a car?
Re:How do you fix a stroad? by zionic on Friday December 10, 2021 @12:41AM (#29506802)
They’re called sidewalks (for pedestrians). Bike paths are also a thing.

We’ve built our society around cars, and it’s enabled a much higher quality of life. Mass transit sucks. I’ve been to pretty much every tier-I city on the planet and the ones that really pushed transit (Hong Kong comes to mind) were by far the worst.

In the US roads and interstates were built for cars. We love being able to leave when we want, not worry about the weather, and have large homes far (in miles, not time… thanks again cars) from city centers.

Bikes do not belong on high speed automotive networks, it slows everyone else down and is extremely dangerous for the cyclist.

Re:How do you fix a stroad? by caskstrength on Friday December 10, 2021 @06:09AM (#29508577)
> Mass transit sucks. I’ve been to pretty much every tier-I city on the planet and the ones that really pushed transit (Hong Kong comes to mind) were by far the worst.

Strange. I've also been to some "tier-I" cities myself and liked the ones that really pushed transit the most (Tokyo comes to mind).