News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by Certhas on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:45AM (#29470664)
As a trained physicist, I think you are getting this relatively right. Some of the issues at play are simply unknown according to the current state of theoretical physics.

Our Quantum Field Theories naively predict an infinite energy density all throughout space time. A naive guess at regularizing this leads to absurd predictions 120 orders of magnitude off [1]. So there has to be something else happening here. One of the things that supersymmetry brings to the table is that it makes this energy density exactly zero (but then it get's complicated because you need to break super symmetry...).

The thing is though, without gravity the absolute energy density of a quantum field is just some unobservable number. But how to reconcile gravity and quantum field theory is an unsolved problem to begin with, so it's completely unclear what that naive infinite number actually means. We are working without a firm theoretical (or empirical for that matter) foundation here.

However, the Casimir effect is remarkable exactly because it appears that the local energy density between two conducting plates is lower than in the ambient space. This is an energy difference that can and has been measured [2].

It is entirely plausible that it interacts with gravity in the right way to cause an effective negative energy density. This has been speculated by serious physicists for a long time. However: The Casimir effect is exceptionally weak. Space time is exceptionally hard to bend. So the idea of an actual warp bubble from Casimir effect geometry seems extremely far fetched[3] right now.

How stiff is space time? LIGO the gravitational wave observatory, measures changes to a 4000m distance that are smaller than an atomic nucleus, at its full design it will detect changes that are many time smaller than a proton. This is a feat of experiment that is the more astonishing the more you know. If you had told me you want to build something like this I would have assumed that it's likely impossible. Now, the first signal that could be detected by LIGO was a black hole merger that radiated away the energy equivalent of three solar masses. The peak power output of this event was larger than the combined energy output of all visible stars in the observable universe.

How small is the Casimir effect? Micro Newtons/m force gradients for micro meter distances [4]. Again we are talking about an effect so subtle that it's only been measured reliably in recent decades.

So these are the orders of magnitudes involved: White et.al. claim they can use an effect so small as to be barely perceptible, to manipulate space time in such a way to create interesting effects, when it takes the energy output of the entire universe to generate a ripple in space time strong enough to be detectable (a few galaxies over) by the most sensitive instrument ever devised. So I am sceptical.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant_problem#...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

[3] My physicist intuition says: Far fetched but not impossible. One of the heuristics for looking at this result though is this: The lead author is Harold White, one of the people who really pushed the EMDrive. The EMDrive is not far fetched but simply impossible (to a physicist the EMDrive is in exactly the same category as perpetuum mobiles). Worse, the original EMDrive paper by Harold White, despite supposedly showing evidence overthrowing three centuries of established physics, did not attempt to get published in a physics journal (which would have required extraordinary proof for such an extraordinary claim). Finally it involved some theoretical speculation that were just abject nonsense. These things mean I will not spend serious time on understanding and analyzing the details of this latest work.

[4] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2842

Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by avsteele on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @08:40AM (#29472306)
Good Post.

I'll just put my back-of-the envelope calculation here to insert some optimism. While the energy emitted is immense, since the event was so far away (1.6e9 lt-yr), then if we plug in the solid angle subtended by the detector (~4000m4000m) I'm only seeing about ~2 kJ of energy passing through LIGO.

Caveats:

I assume the gravitational wave pattern is spherical; probably wrong but I'm not sure what the radiation pattern looks like for these event and in where we lay in relation to it.

Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by generalizations on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:27PM (#29477073)
Seems like White should get a little more credit; he's going well outside established science, and accepting a much higher risk of failure than most are comfortable with. Seems like he's throwing ideas at the wall in the hopes that maybe something sticks. More of us should do that, or at least, support those of us willing to see if something did stick.

The tone of this paper seemed less like an academic assertion of an effect, and more like "hey, found something cool, someone should look into this, I gotta get back to what I was doing."

I'm also not going to blame the guy for being interested in space-age propulsion systems.

Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by Certhas on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:06AM (#29482581)
If he was doing what you're saying that would do him credit. But I see it more as indulging in wishful thinking and gaming the funding system by promising vaguely plausible nonsense and avoiding the tough questions that would come with seriously engaging with the physics community.

A lot of the writing falls woefully short of being a serious effort at science. It's more "wouldn't it be cool if" science fiction.

The entire "attempt" to link the EMDrive to Bohmian quantum mechanics is just a grand amalgamation of conceptual confusion.

Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by l33tman on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @10:24AM (#29473392)
I read the new paper and I'm familiar reading physics articles. It strikes me almost as GPT-3 generated in places.. It certainly would not be accepted in its current form by any peer review process in a high impact journal. I'm sure the intent and ambition is absolutely sincere and there is serious research here but it's presented in a very unclear way IMHO. I think the paper could be rewritten to be more focused..
Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by plutonorm on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @12:13PM (#29475234)
Peer review scores are uncorrelated with citation count over time. So forgive me if I discard peer reviews and other anecdata.
Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by Certhas on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:53AM (#29482508)
What the heck are peer review scores? And why would you expect it to be correlated with citation count? High quality research isn't the same thing as highly citable research. Peer review is supposed to check plausibility and maintain minimum quality standards. Peer review isn't a sign that something is good. But if something can not even get peer review it's a sure sign that it's pretty bad.
Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by plutonorm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:23AM (#29497029)
Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by Certhas on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:55AM (#29497321)
I know that video. This is also different from pure peer review because it involves an editorial decision/recommendation. I am sure >95% of the papers rejected from NeuralIPS will pass peer review elsewhere.

So this isn't about getting published in peer reviewed venues, this is about getting published in a particular, selective, high visibility venue.

So as far as I can see none of this has any bearing on anything you replied to.

Re:Numerics applied to Casimir geometry generates intersecti... by plutonorm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:59AM (#29497360)
lol