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Re:100 years of whatever this will be by padobson on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:01PM (#29419835)
I'd ask you to check your basic assumption about science as an authority.

Science is really good at transmitting information about deterministic processes, but is really bad at transmitting information about non-deterministic processes or even processes that are so complex that they appear non-deterministic e.g. human behavior.

I don't believe in reincarnation, but it's not hard at all for me to see how it can be used as a moral tool that helps people think long term. It's not a bad idea to use tools like this, especially since all attempts so far to design a "science of morality" have been bloody, catastrophic failures.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by CapmCrackaWaka on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:11PM (#29419988)
> I don't believe in reincarnation, but it's not hard at all for me to see how it can be used as a moral tool that helps people think long term.

At first glance things like this can sound good. However, religious ideologies like this are always double edged swords. In India, their caste system is heavily reinforced by the believe that people in a lower caste were "bad people" in a past life, and so there are no reservations about subjugating or otherwise discriminating against them.

This _always_ tends to happen to _every_ spiritual law scheme eventually, under different cultures. If a religion has enough followers, people have used its (seemingly good natured) ideology to kill and discriminate against those they don't like. This is the nature of humanity, I doubt there is any possible spiritual teachings that wouldn't eventually fall into this trap.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by IIAOPSW on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:32PM (#29420279)
Your causation is backwards. People who feel like discriminating find a rationalization for their beliefs post hoc. Yes religious ideologies have been used to justify racism, but so to has there been "scientific racism" with with all its babbling on about skull sizes. If it weren't science or religion then it would be something else. The underlying issue is some people are bastards.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by tinco on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:31PM (#29420257)
> I'd ask you to check your basic assumption about science as an authority.

Science is the only and ultimate final authority. It really is not a bad assumption. There literally can not be a higher authority than it by definition.

> but is really bad at transmitting information about non-deterministic processes or even processes that are so complex that they appear non-deterministic e.g. human behavior.

No it is not, science functions perfectly fine for complex processes. We can describe and draw actionable conclusions from the behaviours of fluids and gases even though they are made up of inconceivably complex interactions of billions of quantum effects.

We could easily model most of human behaviour if we really wanted to. It is just that it is unethical to do so, so we refrain from it. We make do with observing humans in the wild, and the observations we make sometimes have enough significance to make weak statements about human behaviours.

If the belief in reincarnation could be used as a moral tool to help people think long term, that should be scientifically demonstrable if it's true. It would be a hard ethical argument though, as you're basically trading a persons ability to make correct judgements of their own safety and well-being for a larger "long term" better functioning society. Not saying it's definitely wrong, but it better lead to a much better world for it to be worth it.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by CTmystery on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:49PM (#29420593)
> Science is the only and ultimate final authority

Junk science led to the American eugenics movement that included forced sterilization of 64k Americans in the early 1900s.

I love science, but calling it the only and ultimate authoritity leaves a lot of room to create a world we don't want to live in. This happens because scientists disagree themselves on almost everything. Recognizing the difference in science as an ideal versus science put in practice makes me not want to agree with your statement.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by lotsofpulp on Thursday December 02, 2021 @02:54PM (#29421571)
Utilizing data to continuous refine one's model of the world is the ultimate final authority.

Some people call it science, some call it the scientific method, etc.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by CTmystery on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:08PM (#29421756)
Sure, it's a great method for understanding causal relationships in the world. It's also a method that humans invented, and it's not proven that some future invented method could not provide as much insight into the world as the scientific method. Calling it the ultimate authority and saying that "here literally can not be a higher authority than it by definition" is hard to defend IMO. Science gets its authority from consensus, right now we all agree that science should be granted authority! But it is clearly lacking as an all encompassing tool for understanding: How does the scientific method teach morality? It's not clear that it even can.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by mistermann on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:19PM (#29422751)
And some other people call it delusion, hubris, flawed epistemology, ironic, etc.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by tinco on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:12PM (#29421804)
That it's the ultimate authority doesn't mean you should always believe it. It's just the best we've got. It's the best thing about science is that it's explicit about the bounds of what we know and don't know.

You don't ask a scientist what you should do, you ask a scientist what they think is true, and what the options are and what their estimated outcomes are. It's always you yourself who make the decision.

Regardless if there was junk science in the early 1900s (don't know much about it but wouldn't be surprised), it was people who decided to sterilize people. Just as it's people who decide to kill people for Jesus Christ or Allah or whatever excuse they come up with.

Even if the science were true, and some subset of Americans is less intelligent or more violent or whatever, it still wouldn't change the fact that now we've decided that eugenics is unethical. We embrace diversity because that's what aligns to our values. Maybe if we're in the middle of famine and war our values will shift again. The authority of science has nothing to do with it.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by CTmystery on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:47PM (#29422297)
Perhaps we disagree on the definition of 'the authority of science'. Also FWIW I am not at all religious, in case you think I'm trying to restore scripture to it's rightful place of authority over science. I am just intrigued by this statement that science is the ultimate authority by definition, and that nothing could ever supplant it.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by tinco on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:48PM (#29424665)
So science as I view/understand it, is the effort to extract knowledge from the observable universe through experiments, observations and logic. If I compare science to religion, this is where I see the difference: In the church you have the clergy, who preach their understanding of the religion, and you have the basis of the religion, usually a book. To the religious the book or some idea from the book is the foundation, and the clergy are the guides. Similarly in science you have the scientists who do the actual science, and the foundation is observations of the universe. The faith I have and my dogma, is in believing the scientists, that is the part where I can have doubt and where I might be corrected in my beliefs, and the foundation is the actual universe which as far as I have been able to tell is consistent with itself so far. It's a bit of a cop out, because any time someone says "oh but these scientists were wrong", then I will go "ok yeah but those were junk science" and move on with my merry life.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by padobson on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:59PM (#29420767)
Science is the only and ultimate final authority.

Indeed, praise be to science.

It really is not a bad assumption.

More like a leap of faith.

There literally can not be a higher authority than it by definition.

How [onto]logical.

It is just that it is unethical to do so, so we refrain from it.

Amen, brother. We've got to repress those urges of curiosity to appease glorious science. Praise be to science! Amen.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by tinco on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:17PM (#29421869)
Happy you feel that way ;)

> We've got to repress those urges of curiosity to appease glorious science

No, it's to appease our desire to live in a society that aligns with our morality. If you'd read the religious books for what they are and respect them for their interpretation of what it means to be a kind and loving human being, instead of using them as tools to manipulate the minds of the unwashed masses into behaving as a cohesive unit, then maybe you'd understand.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by CTmystery on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:42PM (#29422224)
I believe the parent understood more than you are giving them credit for. You don't think you're being too dogmatic when you replace one authority (scripture) for another (science) while retaining the exact same language?
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by tinco on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:39PM (#29424586)
I understand their point, I just don't think I'm being too dogmati. I'll respond to your other comment with my viewpoint.
Re:100 years of whatever this will be by kazinator on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:32PM (#29422953)
The content of science, the body of knowledge, by definition, not supposed to be based on authority. Authority means that exactly the same counterfactual statement is considered either right or wrong based on whether the speaker of that statement has authority.

Science is currently not ultimate or final because is it is changing. For science to be ultimate and final, it would mean that tomorrow's science is the same as today's science. Nothing new or different can follow that which is ultimate.

However, we need to assert social authority in order to defend a discourse against the fallacies like "argument from authority" or other unproductive disruptions.

Re:100 years of whatever this will be by efdee on Thursday December 02, 2021 @01:43PM (#29420490)
> I don't believe in reincarnation, but it's not hard at all for me to see how it can be used as a moral tool that helps people think long term.

I find this highly offensive. The people must be lied to so they can do the thing that's best for them, because they can't come to this conclusion in a way that doesn't involve lieing.