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Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by 88913527 on Saturday November 27, 2021 @10:06PM (#29365825)
I'm almost afraid to ask since it's such a given, but do employees actually get fired for choosing the wrong vendor? I've heard it repeated in quite a few contexts, and I'm unsure if I should interpret it literally. At worst, I would expect the executive has a slightly tarnished reputation for picking what ended up being a bad partner.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by reuven on Sunday November 28, 2021 @01:56AM (#29366794)
I'm not an employee, and didn't exactly get fired -- but I chose a cloud vendor for a client that seemed like the best choice at the time, with what I knew. The client was over-the-moon happy that we had found something to satisfy his needs. After switching, his costs went down dramatically, and his downtime went to zero (from rather high, which is why he brought me in). He was happy to sign a contract with the vendor

Then, about two months later, the client got into an accelerator, where they got free AWS credits. Suddenly, my choice didn't seem as good -- mostly because paying nothing is cheaper than paying something. (Never mind that the vendor I had gone with had stellar service, which was one of the reasons we chose them.)

The client told the cloud provider that I had been unauthorized to speak on the company's behalf (untrue), that no one had told him we were signing a contract (not true), and tried to wiggle out of the contract (which went nowhere). That didn't go anywhere. So he got angry with me, and canceled our consulting agreement.

As it happens, that client was simultaneously trying to figure out how to pay for taxes and pensions, and was getting rid of some other people. So it wasn't a direct cause-and-effect. But it did happen.

And this is yet another reason why I've been delighted to get out of the "regular" consulting world, and switch to only doing training.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by rkagerer on Sunday November 28, 2021 @03:38AM (#29367245)
The client told the cloud provider that I had been unauthorized to speak on the company's behalf (untrue)

Apropos of nothing, it's funny how nearly every single consulting contract I've seen which has been prepared by an attorney on the client side tries to slip in a clause like "you shall not act on our behalf or hold yourself out as having authority to obligate or bind us", when that's actually exactly what they're looking to hire me to do (eg. "Please come manage our projects, employees, customer relationships, vendors, banking relationships, products, research branch" or whatever else the role entails).

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by james_in_the_uk on Sunday November 28, 2021 @04:07AM (#29367388)
In legal terms, they’re not exactly the same.

You are managing the projects etc. as a service being provided under contract.

You are not being granted actual authority to act as an agent of the company.

The clause they are slipping in actually protects you both. If you are appointed as an agent (expressly or by implication) then you become a fiduciary for them which might give you obligations that aren’t necessary spelled out in the contract.

So, this isn’t a clause most well advised people push back on.

If they do still need to sign on behalf of the company in some discreet situations they look into getting a limited power of attorney instead. Safer and clearer for both parties.

Not legal advice of course. I assume your own attorney would have explained this to you anyway.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by jokethrowaway on Sunday November 28, 2021 @06:29AM (#29368057)
Wow, that guy dodged a bullet by not going with aws free credits. After a year he would have ended up being locked in aws and paying tons more.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by reuven on Sunday November 28, 2021 @09:47AM (#29369297)
He did go with the AWS free credits. And then spent a long time getting angry with me and trying not to pay me, because I had supposedly cost him so much, and he wanted to dump the other server company. Sigh.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by sofixa on Sunday November 28, 2021 @11:44AM (#29370350)
You aren't necessarily locked in AWS just by using it. Less and less so in fact, with the advent of Kubernetes. Even before that, a "classical" app with an autoscaling group or two, load balancer, and managed database aren't something that will take an enormous amount of time to move to another provider. Basically the main complexity would be transferring the data and the cutover, but you get that regardless of provider.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by irq on Sunday November 28, 2021 @02:52AM (#29367037)
> switch to only doing training

Tell us more about this transition? Sounds interesting!

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by reuven on Sunday November 28, 2021 @09:50AM (#29369310)
I've only been doing Python training for a few years now. I've made more money, had more flexibility, and been happier than at any previous time in my consulting career (which started in 1995).

Here are two interviews I've given on the subject:

- https://devjourney.info/Guests/83-ReuvenLerner.html - https://doubleyourfreelancing.com/business-freelancing-episo...

I'm always happy to talk about training. I love it, and recommend that everyone in the consulting world look into it more.

I also have a training newsletter, at https://TrainerWeekly.com/.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by doanerock on Sunday November 28, 2021 @12:14PM (#29370665)
Yaha he sounds pretty bad at business.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by somesortofthing on Saturday November 27, 2021 @10:24PM (#29365923)
It could maybe happen if the consequences of a vendor choice are both disastrously bad and easily foreseeable. Otherwise, no, not really. The person who chooses the vendor(or their successor, in which case this whole question is moot) is probably going to be the highest-up person in the company to learn that the vendor was a bad choice, so no one with hiring power over them is going to learn of the mistake unless it spirals wildly out of control.

The quote is better interpreted as "certain vendors are mainstream enough that nobody above you is going to even question your reasoning for choosing that vendor"

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by jareklupinski on Saturday November 27, 2021 @10:47PM (#29366017)
i have seen this

the partner company sent us an implementation doc that was full of red flags, "just send your private API key to the client packed deep in a nested JSON and ROT13 it to authenticate requests, users aren't technical enough to unpack it" sort of place

after I kicked it back to the director saying there was no way I was going to sign my name to that jank code, they tried implementing it themselves anyway, and were found out during a routine "check if API keys are leaking" job

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by wombatpm on Saturday November 27, 2021 @11:10PM (#29366098)
I have only seen it happen when it turns out the vendor is shadow owned by a senior executive. Usually ends bad for the executive
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by hiptobecubic on Sunday November 28, 2021 @03:46AM (#29367282)
> Usually ends bad for the executive

"Survivor" bias here. I imagine on average it ends excellently for the executive.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by Rastonbury on Sunday November 28, 2021 @05:16AM (#29367737)
Yes for some products they might not get fired but their professional reputations are ruined. To be honest, I've seen execs get replaced (shuffled internally downward) after bad projects (large delays, overbudget). For failures in implementations in things like ERP upgrades/migrations which are multiyear and go into double digit millions, these are F500-1000 companies so executives are known failures can become public or even litigated. No one wants to be the CTO/CFO who went for a risky vendor and have it blow up. There is nothing to gain and much to lose cause failures are pretty rare but not unheard of.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by throwaway7033 on Sunday November 28, 2021 @07:45PM (#29374992)
> I'm almost afraid to ask since it's such a given, but do employees actually get fired for choosing the wrong vendor? I've heard it repeated in quite a few contexts, and I'm unsure if I should interpret it literally. At worst, I would expect the executive has a slightly tarnished reputation for picking what ended up being a bad partner.

It wasn't just picking the wrong vendor but one of our competitors got a new CTO after a critical system was poorly migrated to the cloud.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by stjohnswarts on Sunday November 28, 2021 @11:10AM (#29369978)
If something goes wrong that wouldn't have gone wrong if you'd not penny pinched and got the better known vendor then you absolutely can get fired. And yes I've seen it. Only a couple of times though in my 18-year career. Both were manufacturing delays that cost the companies a LOT of money. Naturally the execs who approved it had zero consequences, both times it was a scapegoat floor level engineer.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Docusign a $50B company? by chasd00 on Sunday November 28, 2021 @07:30AM (#29368403)
I’ve seen it but not over something like docusign. When the price tag is in the millions per year there’s a lot at stake so if things go bad heads roll.