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Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by azalemeth on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @06:20PM (#29260169)
The cynic in me thinks that this is because they've realised that the options are either a loss of history, an industry-sponsored scheme, or a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds.

Microsoft's DRM on their latest xbox is insane – they actively consider the customer hostile at every available opportunity, have essentially always-online DRM, including for physical discs [1] and have had senior architects giving talks explaining how the "only" way to make a games console is to have a physically secure enclave in a chip with a truly unique root of trust, a very strict hardware watchdog, engineered resistance to under/overvoltage or clocking techniques and literally everything, including all buses and IO, encrypted to the nines. This is clearly incompatible with recording history (and also produces lots of errors like "this game isn't ready yet" – utter tosh. New Xbox consoles require an internet connection at least once to "activate" and play games – meaning any unsold will become e-waste once the servers shut down [2]).

I'm glad they're making the argument -- the preservation of our culture is hugely important, and emulation is a good way to do it, particularly if industry sponsored (I think it's a shame that, e.g. there isn't a good PS4 emulator yet) -- but there's a definite false narrative behind this.

[1] https://nichegamer.com/xbox-series-x-reportedly-has-always-o...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E983349p7Q

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by fabianhjr on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:11PM (#29260616)
> or a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds.

Well, funny you should mention it because this came out less than a month ago:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-10-28/pdf/2021-2...

> Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies

> [..]

> 1. Computer Programs — Video Game Preservation

> SPN and LCA petitioned to renew the exemption for preservation of video games for which outside server support has been discontinued. No oppositions were filed against readoption of this exemption, and Consumer Reports submitted a comment in support of the renewal petition. The petition stated that libraries, archives, and museums continue to need the exemption to preserve and curate video games in playable form. For example, the petition highlighted Georgia Tech University Library’s Computing Lab, retroTECH, which has made a significant collection of recovered video game consoles accessible for research and teaching uses pursuant to the exemption. [..] This existing exemption, as well as the above exemption pertaining to software preservation, serve as the baseline in assessing whether to recommend any expansions in Class 14.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by BrittonR on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @08:14PM (#29261009)
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by rthomas6 on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:06PM (#29261271)
What's the good word??
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by bick_nyers on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @06:59PM (#29260501)
Also important to note, that currently Microsoft is doing backwards compatibility the best, by a very wide margin. It has been this way since the last generation, and from as far as I can tell, they don't lose any games generation to generation, whereas Sony and Nintendo always have to reinvent the wheel every single time, often resulting in less games getting ported.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by tech234a on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @08:11PM (#29260986)
Nintendo used to be better with backwards compatibility: the original Wii models (2006-2011) could natively play GameCube games and the Wii U could natively play Wii games by rebooting into the Wii Menu. The Switch, however, dropped native backwards compatibility.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by ninjin on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:12PM (#29261316)
To be fair, the Switch changed the storage medium and Wii and Wii U disks are bigger than the console itself. That is not to say that Nintendo has not had multiple storage mediums compatible with the same consoles, for example: Gamecube miniDVDs and Wii DVDs working with the Wii and Gameboy cartridges and Gameboy Advance Cartridges working with the Gameboy Advance. But I think I am willing to cut Nintendo some slack for the Switch given the many compromises they must have made to fit that much power into a hand-held unit.

I am sour however that the Wii Remotes are not working with the Switch though, as I find the Wii Wheel to be a superior experience when playing Mario Kart. There is no technical reason for this as far as I can tell as the Switch still uses Bluetooth for connectivity. Now, there are new wheels, but just like the Joy-Cons, they are far too small to be comfortable given the size of my hands.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by photojosh on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:32AM (#29262608)
I've been pairing the Wii Remotes to my laptop, and playing the old games that way via Dolphin!
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by thefunnyman on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:36AM (#29263720)
I do this as well with a mayflash sensor bar. Dolphin also works for rock band and guitar hero which has been pretty fun.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by photojosh on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:32PM (#29326004)
Very late reply so you might never see this... but I have a full complement of RB and GH hardware, and a long-term project I'm investigating is ensuring those rhythm games can always be played via Dolphin even once all the 'toy' hardware is dead and buried.

Specifically: I want to add direct support for proper e-drums played via MIDI into Dolphin, without the various hacks to get it to emulate a keyboard etc, and compatible even with the Pro Drums mode in RB3.

Guitars are simultaneously an easier and harder question: would require a DIY guitar, but can be fed into Dolphin just by emulating a HID device.

email is in my bio if you want to discuss

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by bick_nyers on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:17PM (#29261342)
Yup, and it was wonderful. The Wii also had the virtual console for older titles that worked great, but some of those didn't make the transition and you have to re-purchase them (if I'm not mistaken, they are always online subscription based titles)
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:47AM (#29263778)
I think you can still play SNES games on the Wii, you just need to modify the console.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by SeanSpearo on Thursday November 18, 2021 @05:07AM (#29263886)
You can do pretty much anything on the wii. It was so successful and so easy to crack and mod that it's got everything you'd want, including virtual console injections
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by Eelongate on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @11:16PM (#29261924)
Gameboys had backwards compatibility as well, at least for a while. Probably half the games I ever played on my gameboy color were released for the original gameboy. Playstations also had backwards compatibility at around the same time.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by fartcannon on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:58PM (#29260906)
Consoles are inherently flawed because they're locked. Linux PC's with Wine makes all old games playable.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by SeanSpearo on Thursday November 18, 2021 @05:15AM (#29263918)
I wouldn't go nearly that far. Wine allows for running of most games, and the rest are usually always online multiplayer games. Even with the ones that work usually have hitches and quirks to figure out. Linux can't even do general windows apps that well, the only reason gaming is at the point it is is because most if not everyone who'd run linux wants to play games. Making Linux out like this miracle system is blind support
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by KronisLV on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:35AM (#29265174)
I'd go a step further and suggest that trying to mimic a closed operating system is always going to be a somewhat unsuccessful uphill battle. Just look at how much the people over at ReactOS have been struggling for years, just to get the basics working: https://reactos.org/

It's certainly admirable, but to me it feels like Windows and all of the closed OSes will eventually die outside of museums and give way to open systems instead, at the same time killing any hopes of running older games and such, outside of cases where they are pretty simple, there have been source code leaks or other things to make running them easier (e.g. huge cult following). For example, you can probably port over something like "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" in a feasible amount of time[1] but something like "Cyberpunk 2077" or "Grand Theft Auto V" would be way more complicated in comparison.

Thus, your choices are probably limited to the following:

  - use open systems and say no to playing games that don't support them, out of principle or otherwise
  - use both open and closed systems, like in a dual boot configuration (or VM with GPU passthrough and relative mouse movement mode which is hard), for when you can't go without those games
  - attempt to use workarounds like Wine or Proton or whatever, but don't expect everything to work out of the box, especially with hostile DRM
In the end, it feels to me that providing opposition to hostile business models is the only way forwards, even if piracy is notoriously bad in the industry and there is ample competition, so not doing DRM and even having parts of your project be open source is probably financial suicide, as evidenced by the occasional thread on /r/gamedev about someone having their game be essentially stolen and it being uploaded elsewhere and someone else getting profits from their hard work.

Linked, because it's actually pretty interesting:

[1] - https://github.com/iortcw/iortcw

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by fartcannon on Thursday November 18, 2021 @11:50AM (#29267549)
No one said miracle. It's just a list of facts that some people aren't aware of. If it felt miraculous to you, well sir, its your lucky day, you get to experience a miracle yourself and instal Linux!
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by hulitu on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:24AM (#29262960)
A lot of old games would not play on unsupported windows 7 because MS is using a dll which phones home.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by merb on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:33PM (#29260760)
> Microsoft's DRM on their latest xbox is insane

as if it was better in flight simulator dvd edition deluxe premium whatever. that thing gave me windows 98 floppy vibes and than the windows store basically failed to play it, even on completly newly installed windows. basically I helped a customers son to install and play his 130€ game..... support was clueless, you won't make this shit up, just google https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+simulator+windows+sto....

I mean you install the game with 10 DVD's !!!! 10 and that alone takes like over 1-2 hours. after that you NEED to keep dvd 1 inside the drive AND you of course need an internet connection and the store needs to work and and and, most often the store just fails to activate. (good news you can download it from the store and if you are lucky it will start)

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by hn_throwaway_69 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @12:19AM (#29262203)
When Microsoft tried this in the last generation, they got totally steamrolled. Many Xbox gamers switched to Sony (myself included), heads rolled internally, and Microsoft renegged.

What changed this generation? Game Pass? Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees?

It's quite curious.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by xg15 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:05AM (#29262434)
> Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees?

Sounds bleak but likely to me.

Stuff got normalized.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by mountainb on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @08:01PM (#29260922)
It's entirely feasible for lawyers from the companies to write out an exemptions to DRM circumventions past certain dates that outlines what you are allowed to do as it relates to the DRM with old titles.

There are difficulties in this with third party licensing, which can get quite complex, going beyond content licenses (such as a Star Wars game or licenses for music tracks) but including many third party technology licenses. Those kinds of issues don't come into play as much with things like movies and other media.

What Spencer is proposing makes a lot of sense but it's not really done from the perspective of rolling back DRM or sunsetting copyright protections. It's about encouraging publishers and developers to support old titles better for emulation, and making it into a business. They're not really thinking about archival considerations or opening up modding.

Particularly now, with the games industry entering into a mature phase, they're mostly tapped as it relates to new ideas and are looking for ways to make more money on the back catalog.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by willis936 on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @10:35PM (#29261711)
And yet Xbox Series is the first console in my memory to ever support homebrew applications without the need for pwning the console. Maybe I'm okay with locked down hardware as long as the manufacturer really is on my side and will forever continue to be.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by drewcoo on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @11:14PM (#29261915)
> and will forever continue to be

Who needs freedom if the dictator is always benevolent?

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by xg15 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:02AM (#29262422)
Could it be that MS is even planning to go one step further? They're not at all interested in preserving their own games, but they might be very interested in adding games from other companies to the XBox through the preservation clause.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by eropple on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @06:30PM (#29260264)
The DRM on the Xbox is super-comprehensive--but their own games are also all, AFAIK, coming out on Windows, and while I haven't investigated deeply it doesn't look too crazy with regards to archiving those if one is of a mind?
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by lwansbrough on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:12PM (#29261318)
Anyone who plays or creates online games knows the value of DRM. While it may irk you for reasons, games are designed to be fun. Playing against exploiters is not fun, and that is reality for games that don’t incorporate serious cheat mitigations. Online games are inherently transient, so the playability of the game should be the first priority, with any efforts to conserve the game taking a back seat to keeping the game fun.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by t-writescode on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:22PM (#29261365)
That's not DRM, that's Anti-Cheat, and those are two different things.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by Crosseye_Jack on Thursday November 18, 2021 @12:29AM (#29262263)
The general pratice in the console space for anti cheat was to rely on the consoles inability to run modified code via DRM. A game on the PC could be over run by cheaters but have very few issues on console, until the console is broken.

These days crossplay removes that secuirty blanket (After all, thats all it was, a secuirty blanket).

The 360 is a nice example, until the DVD-Rom firmware mod was out there things were pretty peaceful in the online gaming space (Excluding people using external manipulation such as network manipulation or exploiting bugs in the code allowing them to get into out-of-bounds areas. Things like aim bots just wasn't a thing).

Once the DRM was bypassed starting with the DVD-Rom mod people quickly found that often the only file that was checked for modifications was the .xex file that the console executed. Many games would just have their configs in scripts that could just be easily edited, burnt onto a fresh disk and the game would just happily use those edited configs because the games were pretty much client authoritative esp thanks to the peer to peer nature most games used.

To get around Tilte Updates / Server side game configs people would use scripts which were still loaded off disk to change the TU/server side loaded config values back to what ever they wanted after the game had loaded/fetched them.

The JTAG & Reset glitch hacks gave cheats more freedom as a) they didn't have to burn a new DVD with every change they wanted to make b) gave them even more freedom on the system to change things as they were basically "root".

My point being that many console games at the time used the consoles DRM as their anti-cheat, once one was broken, so was the other.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by Karunamon on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @10:58PM (#29261829)
More similar than different, IMO. The goal might be different, but the effect is the same. The pertinent bit is that both treat the user as hostile.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by naikrovek on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:24PM (#29261378)
there are LOTS of single player games. I explicitly do not play multiplayer games unless they are cooperative, and even in those cases, I play alone.

lumping competitive multiplayer games in with single-player games, then saying DRM is required is all nonsense.

anti-cheat measures and DRM are different things.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by chrisseaton on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @06:45PM (#29260393)
> a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds

Hmm... not sure I can imagine preservation of video games being high on legislature's priorities.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by azalemeth on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @06:52PM (#29260461)
In the US at least, it's not the legislators – it's the library of congress, who in 2018 allowed (under some very limited circumstances) breaking DRM to fix hardware [1].

In the UK (and I think most of the EU) there are similar national bodies to which one can apply for permission to break DRM -- e.g. in the UK there's a long and complex review process by the civil servants at the department for culture, media and sport [2]. Of course, none of these things actually break DRM. They just say that you can break DRM without getting in trouble.

Who knows, in 2055 maybe my handy device at `/dev/quantum/simultaneous_annealer` will magically break five rounds of 256-bit AES or whatever Microsoft use...

[1] https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/26/18027200/video-game-drm-c...

[2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-pro...

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by foota on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:09PM (#29260597)
In an alternate universe, far far away:

"I am the library of the Senate!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaEdpEuOyE)

I find it amusing that this power is vested in the library of congress.

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by SomeHacker44 on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:40PM (#29260799)
In the USA, delegation of powers to regulators is the norm. The "Library of Congress" is just another regulator here.
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by gowld on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @11:21PM (#29261951)
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by BoorishBears on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @07:49PM (#29260856)
I'm sorry but the DRM on consoles is to (almost) everyone's benefit.

That same DRM has kept consoles from becoming a wild west for exploits and hacks. MS has the right idea, conservation should be on the creators, not a community hacking away to do what the creators could have easily...

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by naikrovek on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @09:25PM (#29261386)
DRM and anti-cheat measures are different things...
Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by BoorishBears on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:05AM (#29264945)
They are not in this context.

Anyone who actually knows the state of the art (or even just knows what DRM actually is...) realizes this.

I've worked as a game networking programmer on a console title and can confidently say the most reliable protection against cheaters is DRM.

DRM isn't just you can't pirate it, it's: you can't modify it, you can't deeply inspect it, you can't redefine aspects of your identity (ie. hardware bans)

These are things that are nightmares for Stallmanists, but this is one case where they're perfectly matched to the use case.

A console is a game playing machine primarily and sold on this premise. The only time we ever saw a deviation for that was the PS3, and they were punished when they had to walk it back. Don't expect it that again...

I would not buy a console without DRM. It's practically the only benefit over PC and its wild-wild west of cheating. The lengths that console players end up going to for any sort of unfair advantage are almost comical in comparison...

Re:Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game prese... by dogma1138 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:26AM (#29264278)
They are and also aren’t, if you don’t allow 3rd party code to interact with the client “anti-cheat” becomes much easier.

To improve responsiveness and reduce lag clients today run a lot of simulations and the servers just do basic consolidation within a given time window, server side anti cheat alone is very hard to implement without degrading the user experience on the client which is why anti cheat today is so aggressive on the client side basically looking for any possible manipulation.