So tell us, how does the real world work?

I can understand it if someone ends up in a relationship that has no life in it anymore, but they are loyal to the children. Still, that still raises questions about trustworthiness.

How does remaining in a relationship for your children raise questions about trustworthiness?

There is not only loyalty in that situation. There is also lying to your partner and the children, and the example and values that you give to your children.

Apparently the children are important to you, otherwise you would be gone from a bad relationship. It involves lying to people that are important to you, which does not speak well for trustworthiness. I can imagine the children are more important than someone outside the family, so at least I need to set some expectations right. That doesn't mean trust is a black and white thing.

What would be the alternative to lying?

well the alternative to lying would be that both partners know they can't stand each other but are remaining together for the sake of the children, I figure once you are at that point of remaining together for the sake of the children and nothing else probably both parties know the score.

What if your (ex) partner takes the children away with them? You can't be sure that they also consider staying together for the children to be the best course of action.

Obviosly you are trying to take something that is not yours.

Getting a five finger discount to get (unilaterally) open relationship at a cost of regular one.

What do you mean? I don't understand anything of what you are saying? What am I trying to take that isn't mine? (And why me, I am not the OP)?

What is a five finger discount?

Five finger discount is when you steal.

The condition of staying in good relations with your wife where she does not take the children and blast off is not having a romantic life on the side.

You understand this condition but try to get around it by lying. Not because it is unfair or impossible. Just because you want to have good things without paying for them.

So in your opinion, the punishment for having an affair should be to have one's children taken away from you? Or at least, you think it is an appropriate punishment. I don't think everybody would agree.

You thought all of that by yourself.

There are a lot of ways to breach a "contract" that is marriage, including a voluntary termination. However, being unfaithful is a good way to ruin your marriage, so if it means things to you please don't cheat your wife, unless explicitly being on different terms (and even then...).

This one is totally reasonable. It does not grant you any protection for the other cases, though.

Your assumptions about me are incorrect. I had a much more sarcastic comment written but it didn't seem appropriate for HN.

You were right to hide behind a throwaway account. It's honestly quite easy to construct scenarios where cheating is entirely rational. But even the mere idea of such things make people revel with disgust. I don't expect to change anyone's point of view, but I will provide a very simple example to at least frame the mindset of a potential cheater:

"You are happily married to your partner but after a few years your sexual relationship has ceased to exist. What used to be causal, recurring sex has now become something of a burden. One partner constantly initiates, but the other is disinterested or even disgusted. This goes on for years. You discuss therapy, but your partner won't hear of it. Your marriage is entirely functional and even productive otherwise. You think about divorce. But you've really put in a lot in this house. You still love your partner, but they've changed. You have kids and responsibilities and a life together, and yet an emotional and biological part of you is ground down to a fucking pulp. It's very easy to just say "Divorce!" and clean your hands of the whole affair. But you're not stupid. You know your life could be ruined. Everything you've built can be taken away. The trust and relationships you've built could be destroyed. Your partner is almost an intimate part of your life, and ripping them out is like ripping your own heart out. You're not strong enough to do it. It's cowardly. But you're not perfect, and neither is your partner for putting you in this spot anyway.

So what do you do? You risk it all, because you can't figure out any better. You're putting it all on the line for one little pity fuck that you don't even enjoy, that fills you with regret. You are ashamed of yourself. But deep down you still know that no matter how much love and affection and stability exists in your world, you cannot abandon that single, little fraction of your primate brain that just wants to fuck. You can lie and you can pretend all you want. Make whatever concessions exist in this world for the greater good and the happiness of all mankind and all that fuzzy stuff. And yet, at the end of it all, there's still just you. Alone."

I can easily come up with a dozen scenarios. Relationships change. Power dynamics change. The role of sex in a relationship changes. People change. Sometimes it's not even about the sex, but the possibility of sex and the projection of one's own self worth and affirmation of their attractiveness and self-esteem as they battle life's hurdles.

It's so easy to assume a puerile black and white opinion on the internet. The morally and ethically -Right.Thing.To.Do- stares at you proudly with their throbbing member. But people are not that simple, it's just not that easy.

I don't know if you read TFA. HN etiquette says that I shouldn't question it. Assuming you have, then please be the person who actually writes a book. I think you have a lot more understanding of the abrasive wear of normal human relationships than most. And you can put words together.

I also want to thank you for your comment that took a binary outlook on the world and introduced some small nuance.

[only the wrong sort of people don't like nuance. Burn them all I say! /s]

I spent quite a bit of time exploring this topic some years back and have engaged with all of the nuances you have elaborated. However I still think you can reduce this part about the 'little primate brain that just wants to fuck' to a moral decision where the cheater is simply willing to put their own needs over those of everyone around them. The fact remains that maaany people _can_ ignore this part of their brain and after all the books and articles, I still feel they those who can't are just wimps when it comes down to it.

We have words for people who are not willing to sustain pain for a greater good and we have words for those who can.

Alain de Botton's book was the worst. It attempted to glorify it as being some necessary/indirectly selfless act done for the preservation of a marriage. Deluded

Your example showcases a relationship that is perfect in all aspects other than sexual. Many relationships are not that. In many relationships emotions may go sour, trust may fade, etc. before sex becomes dysfunctional (think about the existence of makeup sex), all while both partners choose to remain in the relationship for entirely rational reasons. And as time passes, making the choice of divorce becomes harder and harder. But indeed, the topic of is so very nuanced even in cases like the example. From an outside viewpoint, there theoretically might be better alternatives but people are complicated.

A divorce, at least in the short term, is a lose-lose proposition, except:

- cases where either one is in a life threatening situation (most usually women due to domestic violence - a death-lose situation)

- cases where the law allows one to have net gains at the expense of the other and do so repeatedly (in this case marriage and divorce become a wealth transfer strategy - a win-lose situation)

In the above example, theoretically, transitioning to an open relationship would be a better alternative, allowing both partners to compartmentalize the dysfunctional parts of the relationship. But this solution is not always plausible. Proposing such a solution is not plausible in many cases. Even pondering such a solution may not be plausible in many situations. Because, in many cases, simply having it known, that such an idea was given though, is enough to unravel relationships. See all the comments that vilify "emotional cheating".

I have two children and a family, but the grandparent is right while you are a clown.

divorce command should go before unzip command.