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Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @12:28AM (#29237208)
>One of the primary jobs of managers at all levels is to plan and then execute in accordance with the plan

"Plans" can never be set in stone. They evolve based on the people involved and circumstances. A Manager's job is to understand his people and then Plan accordingly; not the other way around.

>If all you can do is complain

This is exactly the wrong way to frame the discussion. Pointing out that you are clueless is not complaining but raising issues which if unaddressed, will most probably result in failure of what is attempted.

Re:Individuals Matter by alfiedotwtf on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @02:49AM (#29237977)
> "Plans" can never be set in stone

Setting plans in stone was the entire Waterfall Methodology where contracts had requirements and milestones locked in and any deviation meant heavy penalties.

Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:46AM (#29238347)
Absolutely Categorically Wrong!

This has been so endlessly repeated without thought that people assume it is a fact when the Truth is far from it.

Excerpts from wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model ;

* In 1983 the paper was republished with a foreword by Benington explaining that the phases were on purpose organised according to the specialisation of tasks, and pointing out that the process was not in fact performed in a strict top-down fashion, but depended on a prototype.

* Royce's five additional steps (which included writing complete documentation at various stages of development) never took mainstream hold, but his diagram of what he considered a flawed process became the starting point when describing a "waterfall" approach.

* In 1985, the United States Department of Defense captured this approach in DOD-STD-2167A[citation needed], their standards for working with software development contractors, which stated that "the contractor shall implement a software development cycle that includes the following six phases: Software Requirement Analysis, Preliminary Design, Detailed Design, Coding and Unit Testing, Integration, and Testing.

The "Waterfall" is what is imagined as a "Ideal and Rational" process (see D.L.Parnas' paper A Rational Design Process: How and Why to Fake it for motivation - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6312940). The stages in the model and the issues to be considered in each stage are what is important NOT their order. In practice it was always a iterative spiral model described by Barry Boehm - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_model

Re:Individuals Matter by alfiedotwtf on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:15AM (#29238514)
Maybe you've never done big government contracts.
Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:42AM (#29238682)
Totally irrelevant and no Ad Hominem please.

FYI, D.L.Parnas and Barry Boehm defined the field of Software Engineering. Almost all Govt./DoD standards are based on their research and writings.

Re:Individuals Matter by alfiedotwtf on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:40AM (#29239020)
TIL: "Winston W. Royce's final model, his intended improvement upon his initial "waterfall model", illustrated that feedback could (should, and often would) lead from code testing to design (as testing of code uncovered flaws in the design) and from design back to requirements specification (as design problems may necessitate the removal of conflicting or otherwise unsatisfiable / undesignable requirements)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#Modified_water...

Interesting because that's definitely not what's taught in the handful of Software Engineering books I've read, and steps backward are not canon (rather, they're called something besides Waterfall i.e Spiral or Iterative).

Looking at that page again, it looks like what I describe is called "pure waterfall".

Re:Individuals Matter by mattm on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @09:19AM (#29240779)
This is a good article on the topic http://www.bawiki.com/wiki/Waterfall.html
Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:30AM (#29242484)
That is indeed a Great Writeup!

Instead of getting lost in the comments, You should post it to HN and invite discussions with a title like "Most of what you have heard about the Waterfall Development Model is Wrong!" or "How the Agile folks have misled you about the Waterfall Development Model" :-)

Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:57AM (#29242927)
Most books on Software Engineering are mere compendiums with nothing much to recommend them eg. the texts by Sommerville or Pressman. Two exceptions that i know of are those by Ghezzi,Jazayeri,Mandrioli and Pankaj Jalote.
Re:Individuals Matter by flawedbydesign on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:10AM (#29238128)
The first formal detailed diagram of the process later known as the "waterfall model" is often cited as a 1970 article by Winston W. Royce. However he also felt it had major flaws stemming from the fact that testing only happened at the end of the process, which he described as being "risky and invites failure". The rest of his paper introduced five steps which he felt were necessary to "eliminate most of the development risks" associated with the unaltered waterfall approach.

Royce's five additional steps (which included writing complete documentation at various stages of development) never took mainstream hold, but his diagram of what he considered a flawed process became the starting point when describing a "waterfall" approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#History

Re:Individuals Matter by DnDGrognard on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:36AM (#29238276)
Not when I have done waterfall - each waterfall phase can iterate
Re:Individuals Matter by alfiedotwtf on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:34AM (#29238625)
Show me a Software Engineering book that calls Waterfall that can iterate "Waterfall" rather than "Spiral" or "Iterative".
Re:Individuals Matter by rramadass on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:55AM (#29238768)
There is a big difference between the stages involved in "Waterfall Model" and the various techniques of combining, using and transitioning from one stage to another.

"Waterfall" specifies the What while "Spiral and Iterative" specify the How.

[dead]
Re:Individuals Matter by rStar on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:32AM (#29237550)
i would say, everyone acts in their interests, at all times, except for individual actors who may value things like the city the work in or loyalty in themselves that may artificially tie them to a situation. i say, if you identify a problem with your organization that you can’t get over, be a grown up, and find another job. seriously, it’s the best thing you can do for yourself. if you feel an organization is rotten, leave. you will never ever fix the rot. if you’ve got bad hr you’ve unfortunately got bad hr, and that’s not your fault, but that also will never, ever, change.