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Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by sho_hn on Sunday November 14, 2021 @04:30PM (#29220918)
I agree this is super neat, but for what it's worth, the "the mirror is actually a hole in the set" technique is kind of a standard go-to in movie making.

I am very enamored with the iconic "impossible mirror" shot in Robert Zemeckis' "Contact" instead, which used subtle CGI to brilliant effect to innovate over the practical bag of tricks. It's my single favorite effects shot in movies: https://youtu.be/avRdYf78kLk (from 1:10 for the impatient)

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by gregmac on Sunday November 14, 2021 @05:51PM (#29221524)
On the topic, another neat video covering several "impossible mirror" shots in movies (including Contact): https://youtu.be/VASwKZAUVSo
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by OJFord on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:44PM (#29221875)
Amazing. I do wonder if I'd actually notice just watching it (haven't seen the film) vs. it being pointed out to me though. I think I miss (just thinking 'nice cinematography', but not realising specifically why) a lot of clever stuff.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by scrollaway on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:50PM (#29221915)
For what it's worth, i missed it when watching the movie. It just feels like there's something weird that just happened but you can't quite tell, like a nice and subtle spice in a well made dish.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by fknorangesite on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:29PM (#29222571)
> I do wonder if I'd actually notice just watching it

Almost certainly not; that's the point.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by kleiba on Monday November 15, 2021 @01:04AM (#29224262)
I don't remember whether I noticed it or not when I saw the movie, but I'd like to believe I would have. It reminds be a bit of the final scene of Hitchcock's "Birds":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULxw4UDY5g8 (up until 0:35)

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by dotancohen on Monday November 15, 2021 @02:17AM (#29224697)
1. What reminds you of Birds? I don't see the parallels.

2. The original Birds did not have that music. I cannot believe how classic media remasters completely ruin the tone of the originals. From Star Wars, to Rust in Peace, to Birds now.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by kleiba on Thursday November 18, 2021 @12:57PM (#29268365)
The parallel is not obvious because no mirror is involved. It is the fact that camera is moving backwards in front of the actors who approach a closed door. Then Rod Taylor reaches for the handle and opens the door and the outside light shines in.

How come the camera is not in the way at that point? Did it move backwards to the closed door? The answer is quite interesting. Let me know if you'd like me to spoiler it for you.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by amatecha on Sunday November 14, 2021 @09:50PM (#29223084)
I remember being surprised by the effect, and totally unsure how they pulled it off. Positioning the camera in exactly the right angle to match what the moving camera was shooting? I can't even picture it. Impressive work!
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by jboy55 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @10:44PM (#29223428)
There is another set of twins used, that is the security guard who gets a full house on the coffee machine. He meets his 'double' that is actually the t-1000, who 'pokes' him through the head. The actor duo are in a few other movies, including Gremlins 2, where they aren't trying to fool the audience, but just are twins.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by GauntletWizard on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:22PM (#29221739)
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by thefunnyman on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:13PM (#29222454)
This is also pretty common in video games where a mirror is just a window into another room with a duplicate player model.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by the_af on Sunday November 14, 2021 @09:52PM (#29223096)
It's what they did with Duke Nukem 3D, I know. But in videogames it's not a practical effect, but "CGI" by definition, so it impresses me way less ;)
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by moring on Monday November 15, 2021 @05:07AM (#29225702)
That's not entirely accurate. DN3D required a large room behind the mirror (I'm saying this from the perspective of editing levels), but that room was completely invisible and did not have to look like the mirrored room at all. The mirror actually "mirrored" the scene. IIRC, if you disable collisions then you could walk through the mirror into that big room, which looked quite boring.

I always assumed that the "big room" was to avoid the culling algorithms / potentially-visible-set tripping over the mirror.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by fastball on Sunday November 14, 2021 @09:13PM (#29222858)
Seems like there should be a computationally less expensive way to do that.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by jjoonathan on Sunday November 14, 2021 @10:12PM (#29223234)
Screen-space reflections are faster and require no new scene draws, but they won't show you "new angles" on reflected objects and they won't go around corners. Planar reflections require a new scene draw, but that's actually pretty modest: non-planar reflections require six scene-draws for a cubemap or full on raytracing.

In general, lots of things in games require re-rendering the scene multiple times per frame, so game engines are really, really good at this. Shadows, projections, transparency / translucency, motion/depth blur, indirect lighting, deferred lighting, even things like hit testing (though for dependency + latency reasons that's a prime candidate for offloading to the CPU). Anything that requires less visual fidelity will have its performance tuned accordingly: fewer pixels, simpler shaders, lower LOD geometry, lower framerates. Nobody will notice if the fuzzy bounce lights are calculated once every five frames and blended.

Ray tracing is conceptually simpler but (so far) slower at any given level of cleverness -- you'll often hear that it has asymptotic benefits, but those same benefits can be pulled out of rasterizers with effort comparable to what is required to make the raytracing practical.

Here is a writeup of the passes you might expect to see in a modern engine: https://zhangdoa.com/posts/rendering-analysis-cyberpunk-2077

Here's an overview of a modern geometry pipeline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eviSykqSUUw

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by container on Monday November 15, 2021 @02:19AM (#29224708)
I don't think you could do a mirror with screen-space reflections.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by jjoonathan on Monday November 15, 2021 @08:31AM (#29227107)
Sure you can, people do it all the time, but I'll grant you that it kinda sucks (which is how I notice that people do it all the time). There are situations where everything you want to reflect is already on screen and the angular difference between the camera and reflected camera isn't enough to be noticeable. When those conditions are met, SSR is awfully tempting. Water is the usual suspect, but wall-mounted mirrors can work too if the camera will only see it from glancing angles and it's reflecting a wide-open space.

Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, everywhere.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by scotty79 on Monday November 15, 2021 @06:55AM (#29226360)
In blender eevee render that's famous for screen-space magic you can get realtime mirrors with "reflection plane" "light probe" by placing it over the surface that's supposed to be a mirror.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by chaboud on Sunday November 14, 2021 @10:06PM (#29223189)
Look up “instancing” with regards to geometry on GPUs. The mesh can just be rendered twice with different transforms.

That said, it often makes sense to drop some of the decorative flourishes used on the primary instance of the model due to distance, or use a different level of detail. There’s really no great way to get around needing to tell the GPU to render the triangles twice (short of rendering the view to an intermediate buffer and using that, which is still twice…)

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by LaserDiscMan on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:01PM (#29221598)
La Haine also contains a fairly nice use of the "mirror set extension" trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okQJPUTQMqA
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by the_af on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:25PM (#29221759)
Interesting! In this case, was it used to avoid showing the camera?
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by OJFord on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:47PM (#29221896)
Surely it's intended as a more deliberate (not technical) device - seeing his 'reflection' we're seeing him as he sees himself, his self-image. (I haven't seen the film though.)
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by the_af on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:06PM (#29222017)
Oh, I understand the cinematic effect, what I'm asking is why they used a trick instead of an actual mirror. I suppose because the actual mirror would have shown the camera behind, right?
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by aasasd on Sunday November 14, 2021 @09:45PM (#29223049)
Even for a momentary shot of a doorknob in ‘The Matrix’, the camera had to be hidden—in the jacket: https://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/matrix-doork...
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by the_af on Monday November 15, 2021 @08:50AM (#29227318)
Very cool! I didn't know that. It's amazing all the kinds of shots that are done in movies that one would assume are trivial to accomplish, but that actually require tricks.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by lwhi on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:42PM (#29222222)
You are correct!

Without using this technique you'd have the camera in shot.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by sbst32 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:57PM (#29222763)
I don't think it would work with an actual mirror - either Cassel will block the mirror or the camera will block Cassel.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by yholio on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:17PM (#29222073)
Somewhat on topic, the impossible flying camera in Soy Cuba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjuLkJ4m-mc
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by the_af on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:24PM (#29221749)
Cool! I didn't know it was more widespread. I suppose the innovation here is that the actress and her double are twin sisters.
Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by dhosek on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:45PM (#29222251)
They used that a whole bunch for the mirror scenes in Quantum Leap where Sam would look in the mirror and see himself as whoever he leaped into and there was someone else in the scene. That series was a boon for actors who had identical twins.

The other identical twin thing I remember was an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Xander was split into two, one of him all his strengths and the other all his weaknesses. Nicholas Brendon's twin brother was used in the scenes where there were two Xanders in one shot.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by Narann on Monday November 15, 2021 @03:31AM (#29225091)
> (from 1:10 for the impatient)

To the impatient: The meaning of this shot depends on the first 1:09 minutes.

Re:The bullet effects in Terminator 2 weren’t CGI by PostThisTooFast on Sunday November 14, 2021 @06:46PM (#29221892)
Amen! I remember frame-advancing the LaserDisc over and over to study how they resolved the shot at the end.