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Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by dekhn on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:50AM (#29149826)
it's funny how everybody thinks 23andme has some sort of grand plan. they had a grand plan. it didn't work out. now they provide a service that tells you who your relatives are and where you came from (genetically), which works well. But the health side of their product continues to be useless. Genomics continues to be one of the most oversold fields.
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by epistasis on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:19AM (#29150129)
I totally agree that genomics has been oversold, and that companies like 23andMe did a lot of the over hyping, but I would also argue that most in the field knew it was being overhyped, and they didn't speak out or they were ignored. The public and scientific fascination and fixation with DNA in and of itself prevents a lot of people from looking critical at it and how it's actually useful. We attribute too much magic to it.

We are not at Gattaca levels of DNA predictions, not merely because of lack of tech development, but because the DNA doesn't actually tell us that. Given the weak clues that DNA actually gives about the individual, Gattaca is a cautionary tale about what happens when people believe too much in bad predictions, and enshrine bad models as a metric of social worth. Any society could fall prey to this, but today it seems more likely the bad models will be based on predictive modellijg from monitoring social media than from DNA.

Federal research programs also bit too hard on the promises as well, and invested heavily in genome-wide-association-studies (GWAS) to very little effect. I chose my HN username as these were getting deployed, much out of frustration with that direction of research. The clues, even early on into a massive spend, we're that GWAS wouldn't be terribly productive.

I think the biggest risk of being oversold right now are the "polygenic risk scores" being used for various quantitative traits, which fail to generalize very well. As more advanced machine learning techniques are used, we are likely to get even worse models. The curse of dimensionality makes the problem much more difficult than with traditional machine learning fields. Each case with a single label has millions of features, but we only get a very small number of cases relative to the number of features. And we are unlikely to be able to transform our feature space in ways that have worked well for, say, images by using spatial data. My personal hypothesis, by no means unique to me, is that we need to use the network of gene interactions as the feature transformation, but we don't yet have that network explored fully.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by ernst_10 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:59AM (#29151328)
> I think the biggest risk of being oversold right now are the "polygenic risk scores" being used for various quantitative traits, which fail to generalize very well.

How do the hits from large scale GWAS fail to generalize within a population? Why would you get worse models with more advanced techniques, presumably the more advanced techniques would only be used instead of the simple ones if they are proven to work.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by epistasis on Monday November 08, 2021 @02:04PM (#29152925)
> How do the hits from large scale GWAS fail to generalize within a population?

Great question! I haven't revisited the question in quite some time, but one possible explanation is sometimes called the "winner's curse." There's a "measurement error" for each site in that genetics is never deterministic, and when you have millions of sites, and only thousands of cases split into yes/no categories. If a particular site explains only 10% of the "yes" cases, it could be that random sampling makes it look like 15% or 7% or whatever. And when you have a handful of sites, each with measurement error of this sort, when you sort the handful of sites, the genomic sites with the biggest effect are likely to come from random chance.

More advanced models have a greater ability to find spurious signals, to overfit the data, and to mispredict. Training with more parameters, correctly, often requires more data, and the biggest limitation to GWAS is the amount of data. For some rare conditions, there may not be bough humans alive to provide the data fully needed, if we are going only by GWAS. Because GWAS doesn't have any model for how cells work, and the naturally occurring variation in the human population is unlikely to provide enough data to reconstruct the relationships that are necessary to rebuild the parts of that physical model in order to make predictions from DNA alone.

There are also potentially different prevalence of causal variants in different populations, depending on the interactions between different genes. In the San Francisco East Bay, there's a mixing of many many previously geographically different human populations. Rare diseases that are most prevalent in one population are starting to present differently when there's admixture with more distantly related humans. The whole combination of minor differences can cause changes to what we think was a well-defined disease.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by notshift on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:09AM (#29150018)
I don't know much about the services 23andme offers, but genetic testing is used extenstively and effectually by functional medicine practictioners every day, to do things like checking a patient's predisposition to certain illnesses, or to see if their body requires an unusually high or low amount of certain foods / nutrients, etc.
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by ernst_10 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:50AM (#29151202)
> but genetic testing is used extenstively and effectually by functional medicine practictioners every day

You mean this functional medicine? Or are you using the term in a different way?

> Functional medicine is a form of alternative medicine that encompasses a number of unproven and disproven methods and treatments.

> It has been described as pseudoscience,[5] quackery,[6] and at its essence a rebranding of complementary and alternative medicine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_medicine

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by notshift on Monday November 08, 2021 @02:56PM (#29153471)
There are certainly quacks out there, but there are also folks with piles of credentials who describe what they do as functional medicine, who operate strictly according to the latest science, and who have massive beneficial impacts on the patients they see, many of which who have been failed by the mainstream medical establishment.

Descriptions like the above which seek to attack and discredit any form of alternative medicine will always exist because mainstream medical practice first seeks to enrich corporations and only secondarily tries to help patients. (Not on an individual level, but structurally.)

I'd invite you to check out the YouTube channels or any of the books written by Dr. Mark Hyman or Dr. Gundry; the content they put out is incredible and has had a huge positive impact on my life.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by ernst_10 on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:57PM (#29154166)
I don't think many medical scientists support any functional medicine practice. I have no doubt much of the medical industry is extremely corrupt, but I have a hard time believing nearly all medical scientists are working against peoples best interests.

The two people you mentioned seem to be regarded negatively by the scientific community.

Dr. Mark Hyman

> He was the editor-in-chief of, and is a contributing editor to, Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine.

Looking at that journal it's definitely filled with crank nonsense.

And Dr. Gundry I assume is Steven Gundry, who is best known for false claims about lectins.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by notshift on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:39AM (#29162317)
If you think those two are cranks, with their piles of credentials and active practices with tens of thousands of satisfied patients, who would you recommend I follow for health-related content instead?
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by ernst_10 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:14PM (#29168866)
> piles of credentials and active practices with tens of thousands of satisfied patients

This doesn't constitute strong evidence and isn't how science works.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by notshift on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:51PM (#29182054)
I asked you for an alternative and you didn't provide one. Are you interested in solving problems or just throwing stones?
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by dekhn on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:10AM (#29150039)
yes, some genetic testing is useful. very little of it makes an actual impact on human health, compared to far larger contributions from other fields. It's just oversold.

Note: I have 25+ years experience in this field, I'm not just spewing out random beliefs.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by notshift on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:19AM (#29150122)
You probably have much more knowledge than me then, but based on the reading I've done, we now basically know of certain genes that make people far more likely to get diseases like alzheimers or even to get a diagnosis of autism (genes which make the body unable to detoxify heavy metals) - it seems to me like that sort of information is probably instrumental in being able to fully understand and eventually cure or prevent these diseases, no?
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by cblconfederate on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:03AM (#29149959)
It didnt work out or wasn't allowed to work out? I can upload my data to promethease to get health reports. I bet these would be a lot more useful if we had been freely allowed to exchange this data with each other.
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by dekhn on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:13AM (#29150064)
Can you tell us more abuot your health reports? My full genome sequence (superior to any exome panel or SNP marker test) more or less said "you don't have any risk factors that we know of". WHich is about as non-actionable as it gets.
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by cblconfederate on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:18AM (#29150120)
Apart from higher chance of "restless legs syndrome" and allergies to some drugs there was not a lot that was actionable indeed. Still i would like to have them and i dont see something wrong with having scientifically backed, objective information. This is from my 23andme data.

I have also got a full 30x sequencing from a bargain offer, but i haven't analyzed those. Never got to it, apart from downloading some app to browse them. Which stresses my point why the analysis that these services could provide is useful.

Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by NoFingerprints on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:03AM (#29149963)
I feel the value in genomics is in the raw difficult science several levels of experimentation below the data. I fear that the biggest value for the present in much of the population scale genomics is in forensics rather than science.
Re:All Those 23andMe Spit Tests Were Part of a Bigger Plan by otherme123 on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:20AM (#29150138)
Oversold as in "a genetic test will tell you how and when you will die"? True. But what we are doing today: telling people if they should take drug A, B or C, based on their mutations. Telling people if the fetus is affected by any of a pool of diseases. Pointing clinicians towards diagnostics (i.e. adding info, removing hypothesis...). Tracing diseases in genealogic trees and counselling future parents. Lots and lots of other goodies that were not available 10 years ago. And the best part is that there are much to come.