Yeah, but the salaries are much, much lower.

SF: ~$167k USD p.a. - https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-eng...

Stockholm: 45k SEK per month = ~$63k USD p.a. - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engine...

Taxes are also much higher (especially if your employer has good health insurance coverage in the US, so the added benefits are less). Like I pay an average 40% rate on income plus 25% sales tax, the marginal rate on income (and RSUs, etc.) is 56%!

It's really painful for stuff like housing which is a similar price (and increasing!), or inelastic international goods like electronics, cars, fuel (which is also heavily taxed), etc.

Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).

“Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).”

USA is a huge nation with extreme variations in housing costs and salaries depending on location. Most workers get few benefits, no vacation time, and meager government benefits. Homeless people wander most areas especially urban due to these issues. Still think Americans are lucky?

Don't forget the 31.42% payroll tax that's hidden from your salary but a tax right on it.

A salary of 50k SEK costs the employer 65.7k SEK on their books, which is what actually matters. The actual marginal taxrate flowing from your employers books at that level is somewhere up at 75%-80%, not even counting sales tax when you use the money.

Yeah, but even considering that, the gross salaries are still much lower.

Taxes are too high (on income), and wages are too low.

The US has a 7.5% employer side payroll tax up to some limit.

Effective marginal tax rates in the US are higher than they look at a glance.

I was just in Italy and it seemed like all the restaurants were packed every night. They're not cheap. How are people able to eat out so much in EU on these salaries?

If 5 people go out 5 nights a weeks there will be the same crowd as if 10 people go out 2 nights a week.

Maybe there's just a ton of people and not a lot of restaurants and people like to eat out occasionally.

The immediate conclusion doesn't have to be that the Italians have a bunch of money that they are being frivolous with. There are other options.

I’m not assuming they’re being frivolous I’m just trying to figure out the economics. There are loads and loads of restaurants everywhere.

'loads and loads' is kind of not quantitative enough imo.

Not saying you're wrong.

I've just read that Europeans make objectively WAYYYY less than American's in tech jobs to a staggering depressing amount for the same amount of work...

So just rustles my jimmies to see unscientific hearsay rumours about them to make their situation worse.

Probably a fair bit of pent up demand from Covid. Also, the economy is strong at the moment, even in Europe.

Of course, were the other patrons tourists?

>They're not cheap.

They are.

Pizza Margarita in Naples cost 4 Euro when I was there in 2019.

I was just in Italy the last few months and it's true that street food is cheap but normal restaurants are similar to US prices and those places were packed every night in every city I visited.

> remember those freedoms can also destroy your life, if you end up on the other end. Americans have to step over homeless people on the sidewalks, who got fired, who got sick while uninsured, who are addicted or mentally ill. Those who do well live in suburbia, where their kids are also not that free, going outside alone is too dangerous.

Those taxes pay for other forms of freedom

I support universal healthcare, free life-long education and universal paid leave.

I don't support inviting 3 million refugees (to a nation of only 11 million people at the time) when we have no spare housing, or being forced to fund others' childcare (it's a lifestyle choice).

Taxes can be much better managed.

For software engineers, there are employers in Stockholm that pay much more than 63k USD p.a. A good income combined with the low mortgage interest rate (~1.4%) and the basically tax-free investment accounts (ISK/KF) make Stockholm a pretty good place to make money in over time.

The ratio between real estate price and income is much higher in many European cities compared to the US: https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/202...

I think the original poster is off by a bit, 350-450k USD for 60m2 is what you pay outside Stockholm. In the city proper, it's ~770k USD for 60m2. Basically this segregates society into the "haves" and the "have nots".