News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by frankfrankfrank on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:08AM (#29095731)
If this were not just an utterly meaningless exercise, every single person that has ever worked at or with the NSO group should be blacklisted and untouchable to send an actual signal and make the consequences of participating in such activities actually meaningful and consequential.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by eli on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:22PM (#29096799)
It means, among other things, that no US company or person can sell them technology or offer technical services under threat of significant penalty. How is that meaningless?
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by shlurpy on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:42PM (#29097072)
Companies can be disbanded and reformed. The people in charge can distance themselves from the "failed" attempt and make a new, nonblacklisted one. That's why punishment and blacklisting has to extend to decision-makers, rather then flimsy symbolic entities.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @02:11PM (#29098339)
> Companies can be disbanded and reformed

This is the U.S. Treasury. The concerns you're worried about have been contemplated.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by tgsovlerkhgsel on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:04PM (#29100239)
Exactly. Which means that it's intentional to leave this relatively meaningless, more posturing and a slap on the wrist instead of an actual punishment for the people involved.

If they really wanted to stop this kind of activity, they'd sanction the individuals involved. This would deter others from forming a successor - would you accept an extremely well paid job if there was a risk that the US will put you on its official international shitlist for that?

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:38PM (#29100651)
> it's intentional to leave this relatively meaningless

That's not how the Entity or SDN lists work. Every individual ever employed by NSO Group is going to start having difficulties with their bank and securities accounts starting today. Affiliation with a blacklisted entity moves you from "person who does not generate hits on OFAC" to "person who does." For many institutions, that's a dealbreaker.

You can't get around a blacklist by shutting down shop and re-starting under a new name. These are old, battle-hardened tools originally designed to go after state actors. The loopholes have been thoroughly explored.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by eli on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @01:05PM (#29097420)
In this hypothetical, creating a new entity seems like a fair bit of work, but adding the new entity to the list so it faces the same controls is trivial. What am I missing?

I certainly wouldn't send technology subject to export control to anyone I knew to be a part of NSO Group or any successor.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by shawnz on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @01:19PM (#29097634)
If this was done as a reaction to changing public opinion and not genuine concern, then it will be a while before public opinion catches up with the new entity.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by alwayseasy on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:27PM (#29101254)
I doubt the people at the US Treasury would be blind to such an obvious maneuver. Not matter what the public opinion says I think they won't let NSO try and evade their blacklist.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by more_corn on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @01:52PM (#29098093)
Furthermore this means that US police departments and intelligence agencies will be banned from purchasing and deploying NSO spying tools to attack their own citizens.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by e0a74c on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @02:15PM (#29098383)
That probably just means that they don't need these tools (because they helped develop them or have something much better/scarier already). These types of laws/export bans only exist because the security community allows it.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by worik on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @02:28PM (#29098529)
Trade protection?
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by FDSGSG on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:09AM (#29095755)
This has some meaningful consequences. It makes NSO and any money that has touched NSO poisonous. It's not illegal to touch, but few banks will want to work with you.

If you're an employee receiving salary payments from NSO, expect your bank to be unhappy with you.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by bberenberg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:23AM (#29095959)
That isn't what the Entity List does. See https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/lists-of-p...
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by FDSGSG on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:14PM (#29096675)
This is very much what the entity list does in practice. Any company listed on the entity list is an incredibly high risk client.

Just like a NYT article accusing you of being a terrorist does not carry any official repercussions, it will certainly ruin your banking relationships.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by bberenberg on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:50PM (#29097194)
I don't know enough about this topic, can you show any evidence of this? Maybe through a bank's policy docs or something along those lines?
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by jcrawfordor on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @02:24PM (#29098487)
It's a very well-understood aspect of the financial industry that banks use a combination of in-house departments and outside providers to perform background research on their clients. The depth and breadth of this research depends on the size of the financial relationship. Things like searching for domestic and foreign news articles that mention the client, and particularly flagging any that indicate a suspect business history or suspect relationships, is basically a minimum requirement for a significant client under today's AML/KYC framework. It's almost explicitly required since there are regulatory requirements pertaining to politically exposed persons (PEPs), and the standards for identification of PEPs directly relate to public profile. i.e. if you are frequently mentioned in the newspaper, even purely positively, a bank is going to have to perform additional diligence.

Since checking all manner of sanction, exclusion, risk, etc. lists published by the government is trivially automatable it is basically a minimum standard, and even the simplest KYC systems are going to flag customers that appear on any of these. For more significant clients additional databases and analyst resources will be used that are likely to uncover a relationship with such entities, especially a simple and easy to check one like prior employment.

This is a world with few black and white rules, and banks are mostly not outright prohibited from providing services to high-risk customers. But higher and higher levels of approval will be required, and the bank will have to go into the situation knowing that they will incur extra costs in terms of analyst time, compliance work, and ultimately liability of potentially huge amounts of money. It will be difficult, although maybe not impossible, to convince a bank to work with you. Everything will end up costing you more. You will have to be very cautious because banks will sometimes change their risk evaluations and decide to terminate the relationship, and you will have to figure out how to start your banking relationship over somewhere else.

While all of this is required under various laws (federally things like the BSA, PATRIOT act, etc), statutes are intentionally vague about the requirements both because banks are encouraged (and pretty much required) to perform internal research and development to improve their AML/KYC methods, and because the system operates in part on secrecy - bank clients need to not know how AML/KYC analysis works in much detail or they may find a way to structure around it. Banks also share information with each other and with governments, much of which is done under strict confidentiality agreements for several different reasons.

Banks that get this wrong can lose hundreds of millions and occasionally even billions of dollars, so there's a lot of hesitance to take on risk. It's also generally perceived that enforcement is becoming more aggressive over time, not less.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by alwayseasy on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:34PM (#29101330)
McKinsey has a rather generalist and reader friendly take on it that won't break any laws: If you look at their Exhibit 1, "Sanctions" is clearly a contributor to high risk in AML/CFT models. As your link showed, the Entity List is one of the first sanctions list created with CFT in mind.

Source: https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/risk-and-resilie...

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by tgsovlerkhgsel on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:13PM (#29102227)
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by FDSGSG on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:53PM (#29097236)
I can't show evidence, but I don't have to because this is incredibly obvious to anyone with basic banking experience.

FWIW It is practically illegal for banks to discuss their AML/KYC practices, nobody is going to go into detail about this.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by funnyflamigo on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:47AM (#29096283)
Does this mean you can still work with them, you just require a license first?
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by lordofgibbons on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @11:14AM (#29095833)
I think you might be mixing up trade imbargo with a sanction.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @02:14PM (#29098370)
> I think you might be mixing up trade imbargo with a sanction

Being employed, or even having been employed, by an entity on the BIS's Entity List will make doing business in U.S. and in U.S. dollars expensive and tedious. At the very least, you will impose ongoing additional costs for every financial institution you interact with.

Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by FDSGSG on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:13PM (#29096667)
Of course not, I'm simply pointing out that this certainly places you in the "super high risk" category as far as any KYC procedures go.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by tyingq on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:53PM (#29097242)
Perhaps confusing it with the OFAC list, which is directly about banking and blocking transactions for named entities and individuals.
Re:US puts NSO Group on trade blacklist by FDSGSG on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @12:54PM (#29097260)
Not confusing with the OFAC list. Being on any list makes you a toxic customer.

Yes, there are other designations which would carry even worse repercussions.