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Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by mediaman on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:03PM (#29084045)
A note on the mortgage: I understand your aversion to debt, but choosing a shorter duration mortgage can increase the probability of default, even if it shortens the time to the point that you are debt free, because for any given amount of cash reserves you have it shortens the runway you have if you lose your income.

As long as mortgage money is cheap, the most profitable course of action is to use the 30 year mortgage, but keep a large chunk of money in reserve and invest the rest in the market for the long term. And never allow yourself to not be well-cushioned.

Debt gets people in trouble when they use it to get things that put them on the edge, where losing a job causes them to miss a payment. For people who stay far away from the edge, and are good with money, it's very profitable.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by VBprogrammer on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:25PM (#29084409)
Compound interest means that you will be paying a lot more money for the same house if you buy over 30 rather than 15 years.

However, for someone disciplined, taking a 30 year mortgage and paying it off like a 15 year mortgage with significant over payments is a good strategy. It means if you need to tighten your belt you can always drop down to the normal payment for a spell without so much as having to speak to the bank.

The worst option is to take the 30 year mortgage and then buy the larger house that the longer period allows you to afford.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by grey-area on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:19PM (#29085283)
You’re not allowing for leverage, inflation and incredibly low interest rates.

In real terms cash is losing significant money every year while assets are gaining money. Debt makes sense as long as you have a margin of safety and can multiply the impact with leverage.

IF you believe inflation will be significant over 30 years say, and can lock in a low rate, it is better to go with a longer term.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by VBprogrammer on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:39PM (#29085607)
People use all kinds of accounting tricks to convince themselves that some purchase or other makes financial sense. Trading in their perfectly good 2 year old car for a brand new one, buying on finance when they could buy a cheaper one outright. I'm sceptical that it ever pays off that way.
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by bdxn on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @03:58PM (#29086620)
It's not an accounting trick; it's historically low rates. At the beginning of 2021 would you rather have paid 350k cash for a house or taken a 30 year mortgage and invested the remaining 80% (after a 20% down payment) into the sp500? Your house might be up around 10-25% depending on the market making your 20% stake worth more. and your 280k cost-basis that you invested would be worth 350k. You'd have already earned your down payment back before the end of the year.

If you think the return of your investments will >= 3% mortgage rates then you're losing money by not taking on debt (albeit with a bit of risk).

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by VBprogrammer on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @05:03PM (#29087321)
If instead of buying the house cash I put it all into bitcoin at the begining of the year I'd now have enough to pay off the mortgage, the early repayment fee and have change to spare.

This being the utter fucking fallacy of hypothesising with the benefit of perfect information.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by grey-area on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @05:10AM (#29092442)
Personally I wouldn't touch bitcoin, nor do I consider it an asset. Returns on stock investments are historically high for the last couple of decades it's true, but if you take the average of say 5% a year, it's still much better than putting that money into a mortgage, when you can borrow the money over a long time period at < 1% (as in the UK for example), or even at 3%.

It's not a trick, it's simple maths. It certainly doesn't always work, and there are risks involved, so not everyone will agree on the right decision, but there is clearly a path where borrowing money to pay for a large asset makes sense.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by VBprogrammer on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @08:08AM (#29093512)
You've basically just reinvented the endowment mortgage. That went really well for everyone in the 90s.
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by grey-area on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @09:14AM (#29094119)
No. I wasn't suggesting investing to pay off the mortgage (endowment mortgage), but investing as an alternative use of funds compared to paying off a debt held at low interest rates in a rapidly depreciating currency.

Imagine a more extreme example:

Interest rates 0.1%, Inflation 10%, 30 year term, leverage meaning your 50k becomes say 500k invested.

Now it makes sense to take on as much debt as you can get over say 30 years, and to put off paying it as long as possible, because even after a few years the payments will be quite minor compared to your inflating income, and at the end of the 30 years the debt you have left and the interest payments on it will be trivial compared to your income.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by mywittyname on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @05:50PM (#29087892)
> for someone disciplined, taking a 30 year mortgage and paying it off like a 15 year mortgage with significant over payments is a good strategy.

This is the worst of both worlds. You pay the interest penalty of a 30 year, with the payment of a 15 year (well, slightly more). The interest difference between a 30 and 15 year mortgage is about 30% (2.x% v 3.x% APR).

I did a 15 year mortgage, then refinanced it every 12m or so ($250 each time), resetting the payments back to 180 months each time. That way, I get the interest savings of a 15 year, which is significant, and each refinance makes your payment quite a bit lower because a 15 year loan actually pays back principal. After six years, my mortgage will be the same as it would have been if I originally got a 30 year, but it will be paid off in 21 years instead of 30.

There's a risk interest rates rise, or I lose my job and can't refinance. But so far, so good. And honestly, my mortgage now is so close to what it would have been with an original 30 year loan that it doesn't even matter if I can never refinance. The hardest part was the first two years.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ineedasername on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:08PM (#29085133)
>Compound interest

Depends on how much better the same amount of money would perform if invested in an index fund. It could be more profitable to throw the difference in monthly payments into a vanguard account instead of a higher 15yr monthly payment.

Personally my view is exactly your second point: Buy small enough that you can consistently put $x extra each month against the principle + one full extra payment each year. It's a good middle ground to maintain flexibility

And absolutely-- buying the biggest you can fit into monthly expenses may even seem responsible: "I'm not living beyond my means!" but is a razors edge of risk for unanticipated expenses or more significant life disruptions.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ncallaway on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:43PM (#29084706)
This was the approach that made the most sense to me.

Purchase a house where you can afford the 15-year fixed mortgage, but take out the 30-year fixed mortgage. Pay it off as if it were the 15-year fixed (ensure that your loan has no penalties for prepayment or extra payments, and that 100% of extra payments go toward the principal).

If things go smoothly for you, you’ll pay a marginal amount of additional interest (because your % will be higher as a 30-year than a 15-year). However, if you run into cash flow issues, you have a good amount of reduction in mortgage payments that you can make while keeping the bank completely satisfied.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by avidiax on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @03:39PM (#29086407)
No reason to make principal-only payments with interest rates so far below the avg. stock market return.

Obviously if a bond paying 3% would be interesting to you, pay the mortgage off first before buying the bond.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ncallaway on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @05:05PM (#29087348)
I agree that produces a better expected return, however the downside-risk from a bad outcome is worse for me than the expected upside gain.

Essentially, I don't expect my overall happiness and satisfaction to be linearly correlated with my finances, and I expect that non-linearity to be such that I'd rather be more risk-averse in such a way that I have to give up some of the potential gain.

If there were a world where I could _guarantee_ the avg. stock market return, then I'd of course take that offer, but sadly such guaranteed returns only exist in the form of scams and ponzi schemes.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by mediaman on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:56PM (#29084955)
A better strategy is to use the 30 year, and then invest the monthly difference in the market. Why pay down long-term funding of 3.25% cost of money and lose out from a long-term market return of 7%?

You're right about the compound interest, but compound interest can work for you as well.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ajb on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:36PM (#29084584)
The answer to this dilemma is to have an offset mortgage. Your savings offset the amount borrowed, and you only pay interest on the difference. Once you've saved enough to cover it, you pay no interest.
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ineedasername on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:15PM (#29085222)
Though something to keep in mind is that offset mortgages are not an option in all locales. The US for example doesn't have them.
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by ajb on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:08PM (#29109788)
Huh, I just assumed that the US would have any financial instrument that was available elsewhere. I guess the same US statutory intervention into the mortgage market, that makes long fixed-rate mortgages possible, also makes it difficult to have custom mortgage instruments?
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by qorrect on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:47PM (#29084787)
Why wouldn't you just buy the house outright at that point ?
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by lostcolony on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:04PM (#29085086)
Fiscal cushion. If an emergency comes up, rather than having no money to pay for it, you instead can cover it, and just pay a little extra each month going forward until you recover.

That said, I don't think they exist in the US.

Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by BuckRogers on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:19PM (#29084314)
I haven't done it for a while but when I last compared 15 to 30 year rates the interest was outrageous, pure usury, for the 30 year. But that isn't my main motivation to sticking to a 15 year, it's just a mechanism to limit how much I can borrow and spend. It caps me at a reasonable amount without me having to think about it, while granting a lower interest rate. It just nicely lines up with an amount that my spouse or I can afford with even one job, or a very basic low paying job. I'm definitely doing what you're suggesting and staying away from the edge.
Re:Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt by mediaman on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:46PM (#29084761)
True, with a 30 year it looks like you're paying a lot of interest, and in nominal terms (i.e., the total amount during the loan), you are.

But consider a thought experiment where you could borrow $1m at a low rate of interest, suppose 3%, from a generous lender who requires no collateral and requires an amortizing repayment. You take the $1m and reserve, say, $100k in "no-touch" cash (your cushion) and invest the remainder in the market, and suppose that the market returns an average of 7% over the long run.

In this scenario, you obviously pay much more interest than not taking the loan. The interest you pay is nearly $500k, which sounds like a lot - almost half the loan! Yet you make a tidy profit over 30 years: after paying back the loan, you have a portfolio worth over $4 million, plus the $100k reserve you still have.

While that's just a thought experiment, the math works fairly similarly for a mortgage. So long as the market returns more (over the long term - it'll be bumpy short term) than the cost of money, you will be paid handsomely for assuming lots of long-term, fixed low-interest debt and investing the proceeds.

And this leads to a second surprising conclusion: you should not pay off your mortgage. Once you've built equity, releverage the house and borrow more, so long as you take the proceeds and invest it in an instrument that will pay more than the cost of money over the long run. If interest rates rise, the math might not work.

This is bad advice for some people, because a pile of savings and investments can be a tempting target to use for luxury vehicles, or boats or whatever, and that can upset the math, although eventually you make enough with it that might be OK. But for people who can live as if those investments were illiquid, it's quite a rewarding path.

And for some people, the psychological value of living in a house with no mortgage exceeds whatever financial gains come from continuing to pay for a mortgage. And while there's nothing wrong with that, it does come at a stiff financial cost.