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Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by arcticbull on Monday November 01, 2021 @07:14PM (#29074545)
It's similar gold, yes. Gold is an unproductive asset. You are correct that there is base demand for it in the form of jewelry and electronics. In fact, a percentage of the world's gold output goes into making Bitcoin miners each year. However, its value is not supported by its demand in these industries. This is why I personally do not invest in gold.

The difference is that if you shut down gold mining, existing gold would still retain all its value. If you were unable to protect your gold reserves, they still retain all their value. If you shut down Bitcoin mining it's immediately worth nothing. In fact if you reduce your energy expenditure below some unspecified threshold it becomes utterly worthless. Mining gold consumes resources, but once extracted it does not. I would consider it to be zero-sum, as compared to the negative-sum nature of Bitcoin.

I would argue if institutional demand and even jewelry demand for gold fell, it would still be a fairly valuable commodity, and its use in electronics would likely expand substantially as it became less expensive. Connectors, switches, wires, PCB contact plating. All big demand drivers, and gold is better than the status quo - just too expensive at the moment.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by gpsx on Monday November 01, 2021 @11:58PM (#29076852)
I think you are a little unfair in your comparison of bitcoin and gold. Gold has advantages over bitcoin, but bitcoin also has advantages over gold. Storing gold is more expensive then storing bitcoin. Transacting gold is much more difficult than transacting bitcoin. One of the downsides of bitcoin is that it could go to zero for some reason. I think gold has less of a risk of that, but other investments have a significant risk of going to zero.

I am not sure I understand the negative sum game you mention. The first payment miners get is (I don't know the proper name) a bounty, which is equivalent to a gold miner obtaining gold. This can be seen as a built-in inflation, which not only gold but also any fiat currency has. The difference is there is no known limit on this inflation factor for gold or fiat currencies. For gold we assume some gargantuan deposit will not be found and that it will maintain its scarcity. I don't think anyone thinks there is an inflation limit for the US dollar or any other fiat currency. Bitcoin has a known amount limit. (As a disclosure, I own gold, bitcoin, and US dollars.)

The other part of what miners make is a transaction payment. That exists in every other payment system I assume, except I guess physically handing an object to another person, which covers a pretty small fraction of transactions.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by caf on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:25AM (#29077418)
AIUI, the negative-sum game breaks down like this: consider a black box around the entire bitcoin ecosystem. This black box is consuming $20B/year worth of real resources, which (given that you can't generally buy electricity or generation assets with bitcoin) means $20B/year is flowing out of it.

Now to be sure there are some customers of the bitcoin system, using bitcoin as an intermediary to move money across borders or purchase from certain online marketplaces, and those customers are paying some amount of money into the system to use bitcoin for this purpose (analogous to the 2% that VISA skims off the top when you use your card to buy something on Amazon), but the majority of the money flowing in to balance that $20B outflow is from investors buying in. Unless you think bitcoin has managed to capture something in the order of $20B/year in transaction fees from the likes of Western Union, AMEX and Paypal, what's mostly happening is money being funnelled from investors taken as a whole to the the supplier industries that bitcoin relies on.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by gpsx on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @08:34PM (#29089576)
You mentioned transaction fees, the other is "inflation" or mined coins. As mentioned above, this is the same as gold and many other things. I guess it is just a matter of definition if you want to say that is a negative sum game. It is not unique to bitcoin though.
Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by caf on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @06:11PM (#29101040)
It's important to realise that when I'm talking about transaction costs I'm not referring to the inbuilt transaction fees in the protocol - those are bitcoin-denominated and so are an internal transfer within the ecosystem (likewise for the block rewards).

I'm taking about examples like when someone uses bitcoin to transfer money, by converting an external currency into bitcoin, sending the bitcoin somewhere then converting it back into an external currency. Whatever loss of value they see from that overall transaction has been transferred into the bitcoin system as a whole.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by irae on Monday November 01, 2021 @08:52PM (#29075478)
> If you shut down Bitcoin mining it's immediately worth nothing.

Except that it is impossible ever shut down Bitcoin mining at once(). It might be more similar to gold than what you think.

There are too many incentives to keep it up. The holders want value to be kept, the miners have vested interest in the system to continue to work. If you shut down, say, half the miners, this will create opportunity to other miners to invest and expand. If it drops too much, people inject money into the system, which gives liquidity to the miners again, that can continue to trade their work for goods and services with Bitcoin or by trading Bitcoin for fiat.

It is very similar to Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, Square and other centralized systems. The fees you pay for transactions keep the centralized finance business working and profitable as well as they invest back in software and hardware. For miners the Bitcoin fees, based on Bitcoin price, keep their systems profitable too. Not to mention some mining companies started to get listed on the stock market too.

(): Yes, you can shut down Bitcoin eventually, bugs, attacks, etc., but those have been tried and not very relevant to my point.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by wpietri on Monday November 01, 2021 @10:37PM (#29076246)
This is like arguing that the Beanie Baby market will never die. It's precisely the belief that the bubble will be eternal that helps inflate the bubble.

For those unfamiliar, Beanie Babies were a collectible toy that had a multi-year fad in the 1990s, with 5-dollar toys trading for thousands: https://www.ft.com/content/1563d643-332f-3887-8c6e-caf7435f3...

It's true that the Beanie Baby market never totally went away. And I'm sure that some die-hards will keep Bitcoin going for decades after it ceases to be practically relevant. But however much the bubble incentives keep major players aligned during the bubble, that doesn't mean the prices will stay up forever.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by Animats on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:16AM (#29077695)
The Beanie Baby market on eBay is useful to study because it shows much the same behavior as NFTs. Beanie Babies are non-fungible - each one is different. So there's no "market price", just lots of individual offers. On eBay, you'll see asking prices around $5000. But if you look at completed transaction info, prices are around $50. That's what an illiquid market looks like. NFTs behave the same way - high asking prices, few transactions. Such markets don't crash, they stall.
Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by wpietri on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @05:27PM (#29087600)
Interesting! I see that there are grading/authentication services out there for Beanie Babies. That makes sense, as a lot of commodities have systems for taking unique objects and making them tradable. E.g., the CME wheat contract definition is extremely specific: https://www.cmegroup.com/content/dam/cmegroup/rulebook/CBOT/...

I wonder if we'll see things like that in the NFT market.

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by jkhdigital on Monday November 01, 2021 @10:08PM (#29076028)
> In fact if you reduce your energy expenditure below some unspecified threshold it becomes utterly worthless.

This is not really true--it's not like lowering the security budget means all the old blocks can be rewritten at will. Roughly speaking, the cost of rewriting a block is the cumulative PoW cost of that block and all the blocks after it, although this amount typically decreases over time as better mining equipment lowers the present cost of hashrate.

For current transactions, if the security budget relative to the transacted value gets low, all it means is that one must wait longer to achieve the same level of confidence in transaction finality. It doesn't abruptly render the currency "utterly worthless".

Re:Report on Stablecoins [pdf] by caf on Monday November 01, 2021 @09:32PM (#29075752)
There are still holding costs for it, though - the guards at the New York Federal Reserve don't work for free - so doesn't it have a similar "value continuously leaving the system" dynamic that suggests that it's negative-sum? Maybe the answer is that the quanta of value leaving is so minimal compared the the amount invested in the stock of bullion that "ever so slightly negative-sum" and "zero-sum" are the same to a first approximation.