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Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by CryptoPunk on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:00PM (#29045631)
The state can shut down anything in theory. In practice it is much harder in a liberal democracy to shut down a network where operators are numerous, interchangable and have low capital requirements.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by analyst74 on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:40PM (#29045806)
like drugs, prostitution, and myriad of other small time victim-less crimes?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by logicchains on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:48PM (#29045830)
All of which the state has failed to stop?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by dannyw on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:51PM (#29045837)
Are you aware of how easy it is to find drugs and prostitutes?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by DaiPlusPlus on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:09AM (#29045905)
Is it? I honestly don’t know. Seriously.

I’ve never been offered drugs by anyone in my life and I couldn’t tell you if someone standing on a street-corner is someone simply wanting to cross the street when the lights change or an undercover cop… or an actual prostitute. What am I supposed to be looking for?

(Yes, I’m on-the-spectrum and don’t get invited to parties, so I’m not representative of everyone else’s experience, but I am being sincere in my anecdote)

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by tomcooks on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:54AM (#29046331)
Similar situation as yours yet I got offered several times to so it's just a matter of learning how to spot them and not of going to parties, although that would make things faster (more people would help you ID the professionals).

Going downtown around 1am on a Sunday morning should get you the full package, at least in most European cities. City parks, albeit edgy and dangerous, are an almost sure bet.

Dealers usually ask you if all is fine and you need help with anything, prostitutes clues are usually attitude and attire, plus they often work in groups. A good undercover cop will be unrecognisable, for obvious reasons (they have to copy criminal behaviour to be successful).

Providers have a harder time than their customers (longer jail time and higher fines) hence the secrecy which makes it diffocult to spott them.

When in doubt assume it's not a professional, if they are they will make it obvious.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by andrepd on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:42AM (#29048014)
The drug war has claimed millions of lives and drugs have never been as plentiful. There are no words in the dictionary strong enough to describe this kind of failure.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by rlt on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:05AM (#29046131)
(This is not advice to seek out these things)

In reality most people aren’t going to (or rather, shouldn’t try to) seek out drug dealers and prostitutes on the street. For the former it’s more likely someone will “know a guy who knows a guy”, or maybe use the dark web. For the latter there are websites and classifieds, you just need to know the right terminology, etc (from what I’ve gathered, I have no personal experience...)

So yeah, it’s underground, but not that underground.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by flipnfloop on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:25AM (#29045964)
Come visit San Francisco. Lots of prostitutes on Capp street, and lots of drugs being offered in the Tenderloin.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by michaelmrose on Saturday October 30, 2021 @05:10AM (#29047260)
I've never paid for sex but prostitution is commonly known as "escort" services which are trivial to find and drugs are mostly sold by word of mouth wherein you socialize with the kind of folks who buy illicit substances and are introduced.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by nelox on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:40AM (#29046034)
Insight, or lack thereof, may be both a blessing and a curse.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by GhettoComputers on Saturday October 30, 2021 @04:29AM (#29047085)
Is the fentanyl death rate or trafficking of underage girls harmless?
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by geofft on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:17AM (#29048957)
The trafficking of underage girls (and the trafficking of adults, for that matter) is a crime in and of itself, not because of what they are being trafficked to do, and it's a shockingly immoral misattribution of blame to say that the problem with trafficking is the crime of prostitution being "committed" by the victims of trafficking.

(Analogously, this is why law enforcement professionals and the like have been moving to the term "child sexual abuse material" instead of "child pornography": the problem with it is not that it's pornography, it's that it's sexual abuse.)

It is not only entirely possible to fight the crime of trafficking people and forcing them to do certain acts without criminalizing those acts, it is in fact significantly more effective. Imagine, for instance, if Abraham Lincoln had tried to eliminate slavery by declaring that picking cotton was illegal. Not only would it not have addressed the problem, it would have made the problem worse - slaves are in no position to refuse to do an act because it's illegal, and a fugitive slave would be liable for the crimes they committed as a slave.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by GhettoComputers on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:51PM (#29050811)
I made that point to say that drugs and prostitution definitely have victims and are not victimless. I could bring up STDs, robberies and killings due to drugs as well, its possible to fight trafficking without criminalizing it, but its not likely to happen nor would a moving target of decriminmalizing actions they do be a realistic goal.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by geofft on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:03PM (#29052973)
I understood your point full well, and it is both wrong and immoral.

Prostitution does not have victims. Forcing someone into prostitution has a victim - the unwilling prostitute. This is a crime committed by the trafficker against the prostitute, not a crime committed by the prostitute against the client (or even vice versa).

Again, take the example I gave of slavery. The analogous argument to yours is to claim that cotton picking is not victimless. Obviously there were victims in the antebellum south. But to say that cotton picking is the crime is to miss the point entirely and to hurt the victims of the actual crime. Cotton picking is victimless, unless you think cotton feels pain. Forcing someone to pick cotton is a crime.

STDs are not a crime*. They are a potential downside of sexual activity of all kinds. We are comfortable with all sorts of activities having potential injurious downsides which are not criminal. You can get a concussion playing football, but that doesn't mean giving someone a concussion in the course of playing football (as opposed to because you specifically set out to attack them, of course) is a crime, and it certainly doesn't mean that playing football itself ought to be criminalized. If someone claimed that the only way to stop football concussions was to criminalize the game, we would find that position laughable or at least dangerously authoritarian.

Robberies and killings are a crime, and they can be prosecuted in their own sake. Robberies and killings also happen in, say, banks; we don't say that this is a reason to make banking illegal.

In fact, it is because banking is legal that police and regulated armed guards can be at banks and stand by as legitimate, victimless banking transactions happen, and that a bank under attack can call for the police and know that they will not get shut down. Going back to the example of the fugitive slave - a slave who knows he's been forced into illegal actions is unlikely to seek his freedom and is quite likely to seek the effective protection of his master, preventing him from accessing the liberty due to him in a just society. Similarly, people participating in the victimless crimes of the sex or drug industry generally have little recourse to the justice system. Robberies and killings (and mistreatment of prostitutes) happens because criminals know that their victims do not have the same ability to pursue justice as the general public does. Fully legalizing these industries is the only plausible first step to solving this problem.

* I should probably say that they should not be a crime. Some jurisdictions have such laws, and they are widely recognized to be both unjust and ineffective, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_transmission_of_HIV_i...

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @09:11AM (#29080645)
In an artificial environment sure, you will have prostitution with no trafficking, but it is never that way in practice. Even in places with brothels you still see humans trafficked. It is irresponsible to assume they go away with legalization.

Concentration of money will cause unscrupulous people to gather.

Realistically, legalization doesn’t end these issues.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Retric on Saturday October 30, 2021 @05:28AM (#29047340)
The fentanyl death rate is almost exclusively an outgrowth of US drug policy. Compare US and Swiss rates of OD’s for some perspective.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by GhettoComputers on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:46PM (#29050762)
Is the drug policy really the issue here? Singapore is so against various consumables you get jailed for vaping (nicotine). You are assuming its policy, but its more likely drug culture.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by Retric on Saturday October 30, 2021 @02:49PM (#29051299)
Drug policy isn’t simply binary do X or Y, it’s a system that can work or fail. Singapore’s policy drastically reduced consumption, thus it was effective just as Sweden’s policy was. US drug policy on the other hand has failed to see similar results and thus it failed.
Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by jokethrowaway on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:12AM (#29048917)
If you're killing yourself with drugs in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare.

Trafficking underage girls is obviously a crime against another human being, it's not a victimless crime like drugs and should be punished.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by GhettoComputers on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:52PM (#29050823)
Should this not also apply to unhealthy eating? How do you feel about:

If you're killing yourself with unhealthy eating in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by snugghash on Saturday October 30, 2021 @02:26PM (#29051125)
I think it's a fairly well-understood causal inference problem to figure out how much effort (money) needs to be spent on other people for GDP growth from that one person to offset the money spent on them by society.

We just need someone to step up and collect the data.

Re:Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central Distric... by CryptoPunk on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:05PM (#29053892)
Doesn't this already apply to eating? We don't forcefully commit unhealthy eaters into institutions where they are conditioned to avoid unhealthy foods.