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Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by lordnacho on Friday October 29, 2021 @04:56PM (#29043429)
What makes an occupation people-oriented vs things-oriented? Is a software developer who makes a dating app doing one or the other? What about the designer?

Is being a doctor one or the other? You need to be able to say difficult things to people, and a lot of doctors will tell you they're doing it to help people. But doing surgery is presumably technical in nature.

Is there an acknowledged way these categories are determined?

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by stickfigure on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:05PM (#29043541)
Sure, the grey zones might be hard to pick out but it does seem like there are some clear extremes. "Locomotive engineers and operators" is 92% male yet "Registered nurses" is 87% female. If you look at all the male-dominant and female-dominant occupations, there does seem to be some sort of pattern which (for lack of more precise terminology) seems to be well-described as "people-oriented" and "thing-oriented".

Go through the list, look at the entries which are either <20% female or >80% female, and tell me if you don't see the same pattern:

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:08PM (#29050372)
Isn't software development a gray zone, yet is male dominated?
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by aksss on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:33PM (#29050624)
Software development is playing with legos for a living, except with a billion pieces and the ability to make your own pieces, with infinite floor space. It’s “thing-oriented” and only grey if you start mingling in the secondary designers, managers, and such external requirements. But it’s fundamentally “thing oriented” like nursing is fundamentally “people oriented” despite the variety of equipment and tools a nurse must be familiar with to do their job.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by stickfigure on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:54PM (#29054328)
Look at the chart. "Computer and mathematical occupations" is male majority, but not male-dominated like say train drivers or mechanical engineers. Some subfields (web and interface designers, notably) are pretty balanced.

We study diseases by (first) looking at people who have severe forms. Ie it would be tough to come up with an understanding of autism just by studying the brains of people who are "a little aspy". If you can figure out what causes the gender segregation of train drivers / pediatricians, maybe you can apply that knowledge to relatively-mildly-imbalanced tech fields.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday October 31, 2021 @12:10AM (#29054394)
I'm still not convinced, the amount of "social pressure" from day 0 (or even before) for a kid is just shocking (starting with: I won't buy a pink doll to my newborn baby boy).

Obviously with animals is different, but there might also be other things at play that we are not aware.

Happy to be wrong, but I think there are so many layers to make a call at this point that sure, there might be an influence, but society is probably what affects this the most.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by exporectomy on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:12PM (#29043608)
Though it does seem obvious, it's pretty dangerous to go looking for patterns in the data. More scientific to define the criteria before knowing the results so you can have a hypothesis to test, not just an observation to make.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by piva00 on Friday October 29, 2021 @06:48PM (#29044387)
Dangerous? That's how science... Works? You look for patterns, you get some data, you find more patterns, you create a hypothesis and you test it.

What is dangerous about analysing data?

Or do you mean it's dangerous to form absolute conclusions just on a subset of available data?

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by shadowgovt on Friday October 29, 2021 @07:00PM (#29044487)
The danger is that you will come to a conclusion that is objectively wrong.

P-hacking is a known issue in many scientific fields. So is drawing conclusions from over collection of data without repetition of the study... As the number of data points you collect approaches infinity, the chance of finding at least one meaningful-seeming correlation approaches 100% because having an unlimited number of data points to bash against each other makes you more likely to observe an improbable correlation.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by dbsmith83 on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:17PM (#29043657)
No, looking at the data is observation or analysis by definition...whether or not you make a prediction about it. Experimentation is when you make a hypothesis first (after observation) and then test it. Looking at data is not a test--it's either observation or analysis.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by aksss on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:35PM (#29050637)
This seems like a political argument, not a scientific one.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by dec0dedab0de on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:12PM (#29043617)
What makes an occupation people-oriented vs things-oriented?... Is being a doctor one or the other?

I speant most of the last 18 months in and out of the hospital, and I noticed that doctors are more things oriented, and nurse practitioners are more people oriented. Even though they do the same job.

I want the nurse practitioner when I'm feeling awful, I want the doctor to explain their thought process in technical detail. Even if it's over my head.

And to be clear, I didn't read the article, but I had doctors and nurse practitioners of different sexes.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by 11thEarlOfMar on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:03PM (#29043508)
I think categories need to be more granular.

'doctors'

A quick LinkedIn search for Surgeon shows that about 70% of surgeons in the SFBA are male.

80% of pediatricians are female.

'engineers'

Prior searches showed that 90% of electrical engineers were male.

50% of SQE were female.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by philwelch on Friday October 29, 2021 @08:17PM (#29044930)
> What makes an occupation people-oriented vs things-oriented? … Is being a doctor one or the other?

Depends on the specialty. Scott Alexander once observed:

> A look at percent female physicians by subspecialty is instructive. The specialty with the most women is pediatrics, followed by child psychiatry, followed by obstetrics, followed by – you get the picture. The specialties with the least women are the various surgeries – the ones where your patient is immobilized, anaesthetized, opened up, and turned into a not-quite-color-coded collection of tubes and wires to poke and prod at – the ones that bear more than a passing resemblance to engineering.

Source: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/ —please note that the bulk of the piece is not strongly focused on this particular issue and is not a very representative context for this point. Scott restated the same point in a better context later on in https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge..., but left out the “not-quite-color-coded collection of tubes and wires” bit which makes the point significantly less punchy and quotable.

…

For the record, there’s a similar pattern in veterinary medicine. The majority of vets who treat pets are women, but livestock veterinarians are predominantly men. IOW, whether or not animals are treated more like people or things correlates to a significant disparity in the predominant sex of the veterinarian treating them.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by vesuvianvenus on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:09AM (#29048889)
>"Is a software developer who makes a dating app doing one or the other? What about the designer?"

I'd look at this from a... step back.

"Software Developer" is all you need to know.

For example a Mechanical Engineer designing a product on a CAD-- Product A is a machine interface Product B is a car seat for young children. One could argue Product B is more people-oriented. But that's irrelevant. We're talking about the occupation, not the product. The occupation is making things primarily on a computer in this case.

Software Developer --> Spends XX% of time working with Things (computer) and XX% of time working with People

vs

<other occupation> --> Spends XX% of time working with Things (<occupation-pertinent inanimate object(s)>) and XX% of time working with People

...And sure, there are different types of Software Engineers ("SWE")-- Some SWEs are heads down programming 80% of time w/ 20% of meetings (for example). Solutions Engineers ("SE") are the reverse-- 20/80. The latter is more social. But to become a SE is dependent on SWE skills, therefore I consider it a variant of the primary category of SWE, whose main focus is working on a computer. Not working face-to-face with a human to participate with them in some social activity (such as sales, nursing, management, or a job with a lot of meetings).

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by brailsafe on Sunday October 31, 2021 @06:28AM (#29055962)
It's my impression that the more you want money for things or your family, the more you'll succeed in software engineering, because it can be awfully dismal and you almost never see the human impact your drudgery serves. I don't really care about things much compared to any of my previous colleagues, and as such there's no amount of money that can compel me to do a programming job I've learned to hate.
[deleted]
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by alisonkisk on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:04PM (#29049824)
James Damore got fired for suggesting that.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by Alex3917 on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:09PM (#29043586)
> Is a software developer who makes a dating app doing one or the other? What about the designer?

Both are thing oriented because you’re doing work for people as an abstraction, not individual people.

User stories might be based on actual people, but they’re ultimately meant as archetypes.

Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by tomp on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:20PM (#29043690)
It comes down to how much you talk on the job. Probably to people (as opposed to, screens).
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by simonh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:11PM (#29049873)
This is detailed on page 15 of the paper. They used the ISCO, which is an internationally recognised standard for classifying occupations.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by popcube on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:59AM (#29048800)
do not this depends on how to teach kids? we can let spmeone concern people become doctor, we can let someone like find and resolve problem become doctor, too.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by vixen99 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:56AM (#29049778)
This occurred to many people some time ago and subsequently it's been shown that while this is surely a factor in some instances it is not true in the main. Biological differences probabilistically motivate preferences.
Re:Sex Differences in Adolescents’ Occupational Aspirations by exporectomy on Friday October 29, 2021 @05:10PM (#29043599)
From TFA: "the people vs things dimension is a continuous scale, but in our analyses we only used categories that are predominantly one or the other. All things-oriented jobs have a clear technical component, ranging from locomotive engine driver to astronomer and all people-oriented jobs have a clear component of providing help to individuals."

It also identified "face to face interactions" as a requirement for being people-oriented. So dating app developer is clearly not included.