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Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by andrewon on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:45AM (#29025415)
That reminds me of the idea that brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model to match anticipated sensory outcome. In this case the inference is way more complex based on cognition that the placebo would help relieve pain.

Based on this idea, however, the study does not identify the key pathway responsible for placebo effect, but only the result of it. If the brain anticipate relief of pain, the parts related to pain would activate. If it anticipates other effects, other parts of the brain would do.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by nefitty on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:56AM (#29026178)
My likely oversimplified understanding of dopamine is that the brain is constantly simulating the outcomes of possible actions. Simulated actions that result in "success" states generate dopamine, with different pathways generating varying levels at any one time. The pathway that generates the greatest net dopamine is pursued, the realized outcome of which then reinforces/dampens the path's simulation function by generating other neurotransmitters.
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by richardatlarge on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:06PM (#29032649)
an example of the complexity of dopamine: a study allowed animals to self-administer cocaine. Other animals were administered the drug in the brain on the same schedule but without 'choosing' to take it. The findings showed that the areas of the brain affected differed depending on these two conditions. This is a study with rats, and yet the effects of a seemingly small environmental/psychological difference changed everything

Another study on electrical brain stimulation showed that while animals would self-administer it, when it was automatically administered, the same animals would respond always to turn it off

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by nefitty on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:05PM (#29033196)
Wow, that is weird! What's your favorite book or resource to learn more about the brain? I've looked at the deep end of neuroscience Wiki and it is super overwhelming.
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by richardatlarge on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:23PM (#29034163)
On the brain itself: Edelman

Bright Air, Brilliant Fire: On the Matter of the Mind

On brain and drugs: https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/...

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by nefitty on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:53PM (#29045844)
Thanks!!
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by archibaldJ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:08PM (#29029191)
Could perhaps be about reducing the cost structure of forming connections in the pathway while increasing in some, and thus more likely that some connections are formed/deformed (ie without the actual presence of agonists/antagonists)?
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by MrBuddyCasino on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:15PM (#29027752)
> brain as a predictive engine that constantly refine its internal model

And a pretty effective one at that. Stereotype accuracy is one of the most solid and replicable findings in psychology. There are very strong correlations between what people think is true about statistical discrepancies between groups and what the truth actually is. The relationships consistently replicate and are much stronger than most effects found in social psychology [0].

We must thus understand wokeism as a war on pattern recognition.

[0] https://cspicenter.org/reports/the-accuracy-of-stereotypes-d...

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by wolverine876 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:05PM (#29029147)
Prejudice is a serious problem - the most serious one. The horrors it has inflicted on people are a long catalog, maybe the worst one. What do you hope to achieve by supporting it?

The underlying issue is about reactionary politics, which exists only to stop progress. I think if we look deep down, we know reactionary politics will object no matter what the issue or facts - therefore the objection has nothing to do with the question at hand or its outcomes. You can see it in climate change denial, as a simpler example. That is its purpose and reason - to object. Along the way, lots and lots of people will die and suffer. Blood, lost generations, are on our hands. And for what?

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by coolso on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:23PM (#29031416)
Prejudice is also why we’re all here today, it has very well documented implications when it comes to survival among other things.

Ignoring and censoring the truth because it’s mean can be far more dangerous with far more disastrous effects.

Censorship of thoughts is not the way to go - and the pushback, if it stays that way, is going to be worse than we can probably imagine right now.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by wolverine876 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:39PM (#29031613)
These are baseless assertions, absurd on their face, supporting hate. Why is that important to you? If you think you are fighting a political war, avoid the mistake that many before you have made - becoming so caught up in the mob dynamics, the cause, the obsession - that you disregard the consequences. Don't say later, 'I didn't think' - that's fine for a night out, but it's not good enough when people's lives and welfare is at stake.

Everyone faces prejudices from some others; should everyone act on them? What kind of society will we have? On a practical level, how does that bring freedom and economic opportunity.

You have a great model that has been far more successful than anything in the history of humanity, the free world, based on universal human rights and equality. The (general) lack of prejudice where I live works wonderfully; the bigotry - almost always from outsiders who have no experience with the people they hate - is the only problem. If they all went away, we'd have one less problem.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by coolso on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:26PM (#29032827)
> supporting hate

That is a bold, unfounded, unappreciated accusation. I do not support hate. I support gut feelings borne in truth. I will continue to not give free car rides to homeless people and to offer to help carry groceries out to the cars of little old ladies in front of me in line at the grocery store - because yes, stereotypically, the homeless are more likely to be drug addicts, mentally unstable, and have a criminal record, and little old ladies are more likely to need assistance carrying things. I don’t hate homeless people nor do I hate little old ladies or consider them inferior. But please, feel free hire someone with face tattoos to be your child’s bus driver in the interest of ignoring all prejudice at all costs. The rest of us will continue to make decisions using common sense, regardless of what Twitter has to say about the matter.

> The (general) lack of prejudice where I live works wonderfully; the bigotry - almost always from outsiders who have no experience with the people they hate - is the only problem. If they all went away, we'd have one less problem.

Could it be you’re wrongly conflating prejudice with hate? Don’t discount peoples’ life experiences either. Furthermore, your example is anecdotal. There’s a plethora of widespread non-anecdotal data to back up “prejudice” being accurate and helping people make wiser decisions.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by wolverine876 on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:02AM (#29035326)
We all know very well where it leads, and knowing that, it's hard to escape that it's the intent of such comments. Protests to the contrary and disingenuous arguments are well-worn, unconvincing, and part of the usual routine.

Maybe I'm prejudiced though!

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by MrBuddyCasino on Friday October 29, 2021 @09:50AM (#29038360)
> The (general) lack of prejudice where I live works wonderfully; the bigotry - almost always from outsiders who have no experience with the people they hate - is the only problem. If they all went away, we'd have one less problem.

Beautiful. This one goes into the collection of all time memorable HN comments.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by LocalH on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:33AM (#29039687)
I don't see that as "supporting" it, with the exception of maybe the one line about wokeism. However, I do think it would serve well to better understand the mechanisms behind stereotyping.
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by MrBuddyCasino on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:52PM (#29031822)
> Prejudice is a serious problem - the most serious one.

I take it you have studied all the serious problems, so that you could come to the conclusion that this is indeed the most pressing one. Investing many years into studying human nature, the rise and decline of ancient civilisations plus the majority of philosophy is admirable! You don't happen to have written down any notes?

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by wolverine876 on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:58AM (#29035315)
Your standards for an Internet forum post are pretty high!
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by rtkaratekid on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:47AM (#29026089)
If the brain anticipates relief from pain, wouldn’t the parts of the brain relates to pain be depressed rather than activated?
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by refurb on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:09AM (#29027006)
Think further downstream, beyond the pain sensing part of the brain.

So opioids are know to be great pain relievers. What is interesting is for certain types of pain, they don’t actually make the pain go away, they just change the perception and emotional response to it.

Patients who receive opioids say “i can still feel the pain, but it doesn’t bother me now”.

So to your question, the impact of opioids isn’t necessarily on the pain sensing centers but rather further downstream in terms of how those sensations are perceived.

If you take a placebo and expect it to relieve pain, your brain adjusts to assume that outcome.

It’s not that different than asking you if you’re tired right now. If you have to go to work you might say “yes”, but if you’re about to jump on a plane for a vacation you might say “no”.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by gfody on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:59AM (#29027584)
the predictive processing model, the best introduction to it imo is this review of "surfing uncertainty" - https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/book-review-surfing-un...

> 7. The Placebo Effect. We hear a lot about “pain gating” in the spine, but the PP model does a good job of explaining what this is: adjusting pain based on top-down priors. If you believe you should be in pain, the brain will use that as a filter to interpret ambiguous low-precision pain signals. If you believe you shouldn’t, the brain will be more likely to assume ambiguous low-precision pain signals are a mistake. So if you take a pill that doctors assure you will cure your pain, then your lower layers are more likely to interpret pain signals as noise, “cook the books” and prevent them from reaching your consciousness.

> Psychosomatic pain is the opposite of this; see Section 7.10 of the book for a fuller explanation.

Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by grp000 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:23PM (#29030470)
The simple explanation is that humans are 40K orks.
Re:Why do placebos work? Scientists identify key brain pathway by WORMS_EAT_WORMS on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:12AM (#29025665)
Super interesting comment and thoughts. Thanks for sharing - I never thought of it this way.