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Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by lisper on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:41PM (#29005985)
The irony here is truly staggering. The whole point of cryptocurrencies is to eliminate the need for trusted third parties, and especially to eliminate the need for trusted third parties who are so heavily regulated that they are essentially arms of the government, like banks. Still, it is far from clear (at least to me) whether the FDIC chair is being clueless or devilishly clever here.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by andrewla on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:57PM (#29006160)
Was that the whole point? "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" is to me more germane. Not allowing the state to issue money at will is more of a core tenet.

I think the a lot of the dream from there is to make it possible to electronically transfer cash. This is currently impossible with conventional money -- the best we can do is transfer deposit records electronically. To make this work we treat deposit records as surrogate cash, and take on a huge amount of systemic risk into the monetary system, which we basically backstop with unlimited government guarantees.

With Bitcoin, at least in theory, we can offer an alternative system. That's not to say that a system can't arise of banks that hold bitcoin deposits and allow you to transfer these deposit record between banks, but the banks need to price in the risk of failure to meet their obligations, so hopefully we can have some mechanism of discounting bank-deposit-bitcoin vs. held-in-wallet-bitcoin. But I think this dream is dying -- there will come a day when you can only buy something with bitcoin, but only with bitcoin deposited in a bank, because it's "easier" and can be unwound, etc., because of correspondence arrangements, and then you'll have the Federal Reserve, that can basically artificially create new "bitcoin deposits", and banks will only let you withdraw 0.01BTC per week, so you'll never notice that they are insolvent, and we'll basically be right back where we started.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by joshuamorton on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @08:43PM (#29008336)
I'm lost, how is the government insurance of deposit records any worse than the government insurance of cash?
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by andrewla on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:05AM (#29014264)
It's worse, not on a "debasement of the currency" basis, but on a surveillance and censorship basis.

On a systemic basis it is slightly more dangerous than cash just because it reinforces the notion that bank deposits are valued at their face value and are thus a cash equivalent. But banks can fail or become insolvent, and because the money sovereign has decided that bank deposits are equivalent to cash, it is obligated to maintain that (through bailouts or other support), while at the same time banks are for-profit enterprises that are taking non-negligible risks (and sometimes explosively tail-heavy risks) to earn income based on their deposits.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by mywittyname on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:57PM (#29006149)
I don't think he's being either devilish or clueless.

Crypto is an asset class that has cultivated a tremendous amount of interest over the years. Banks want to support crypto in the same way they do other asset classes, but doing so is a minefield.

Offering regulatory clarity here is a good thing. This is not an attack on crypto, nor is it about control. Regulators are just providing a framework to allow banks to work with / hold crypto.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by elliekelly on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:23PM (#29006461)
The FDIC Chair is a woman, Jelena McWilliams.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by kube-system on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:18PM (#29006378)
Trusted third parties exist because people demand their services. The problems that arise when you stuff cash under your mattress are the same problems that are leading people to turn to third parties to transact in Bitcoin. Bitcoin didn't eliminate these problems, it is simply a system that intentionally ignores them.

Even darkweb markets have turned to escrow services.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:57PM (#29006148)
Bitcoin failed that requirement. Expensive transactions ensure that nobody will attempt to move their coins in order to actually transact. The exchanges turned into banks instead.

Also, the risks associated with physically holding substantial wealth in bitcoin cannot be ignored. It's just like storing lots of cash at home. We should have the option to store it at a bank if we want to.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by trixie_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:21AM (#29010102)
People don’t transact gold either. It is difficult to transport and verify. Gold is though a reliable store of value as creating more is not easy, just like Bitcoin.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:44AM (#29010246)
I don't dispute that gold is a good store of value. I'm saying bitcoin was supposed to have been more than that. It was supposed to be a currency. It failed.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by trixie_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:02AM (#29014221)
Not really, Bitcoins transaction fees, processing times and rate limits have been well known for a decade. If you think Bitcoin was ‘supposed’ to buy a cup of coffee that’s on you. The rest of us have been using it successfully for much bigger things.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by New_California on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:00PM (#29006200)
Yes, there should be options. Not your keys, not your Bitcoin though!

You can outsource to an exchange/bank but that gives you an IOU only, and not Bitcoin. The IOU is permissioned, censored, and prone to seizure.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by pjc50 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:15PM (#29006336)
The point of cryptocurrencies is "number go up". Or at least that's why the marketing has been successful.

There's a secondary market in "offshore accounts for everyone", via the shadow-banking stablecoins like Tether.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by richlandlord on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:07PM (#29006975)
I don't think the point was to ban centralized options, but to allow decentralized options. A system with freedom would allow sub-systems with "no freedom" as well
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by trixie_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:17AM (#29010085)
Just because banks hold it doesn’t mean Bitcoin is dependent on banks whatsoever.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by r00fus on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:58PM (#29006163)
You see irony, I see a captured government.

Wealthy, envious of seeing their assets outcompeted by crypto are now hoping banks can allow them to further privatize the gains while socializing the losses.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by thr0wawayf00 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:19PM (#29007092)
If you actually dig into all of the services that banking provides, grandiose statements like this fall apart pretty quickly.

One of the biggest problems that crypto hasn't figured that banking is great at is transaction reversal and fraud-prevention. The banking system uses wire transfers that can be reversed if necessary, bitcoin has nothing like this. If an attacker gets your bitcoin wallet ID and key, say goodbye to your coin. That's it, you have no recourse, and frankly, placing all of the responsibility on consumers to safeguard their digital assets without any sort of recourse is pretty ridiculous.

The crypto community loves to talk a bunch of trash about financial regulation, and some of it is true, but a fair amount of regulation actually benefits consumers in ways that crypto just isn't capable of at this time.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by trixie_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:29AM (#29010149)
That’s true, but I think people overall are pretty happy with crypto. You can move more money, faster, cheaper and with way less hassle than a wire transfer. In addition crypto exchanges and services have proven pretty reliable. It really is night and day vs traditional banking.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by thr0wawayf00 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:50AM (#29012626)
> You can move more money, faster, cheaper and with way less hassle than a wire transfer.

My point is that the speed and cheapness a crypto system comes at a pretty significant risk.

Another major benefit to the banking system is that all solid banks are insured by the FDIC, meaning that if the bank fails, the FDIC guarantees all accounts held by the bank for up to $250k. In order to do this, banks have to meet capital liquidity requirements set out by auditors and meet certain benchmarks. Again, another thing that doesn't exist in crypto but should.

When everything goes smoothly, crypto works great. But if the day ever comes that a big company like Coinbase gets hacked and crypto is exfiltrated, it'll be a real test for the community because these are problems that have been solved for decades.

> In addition crypto exchanges and services have proven pretty reliable.

Look at the mt gox hack, millions upon millions in crypto was stolen in that hack, and there was no recourse for any of those folks. Who knows what is going to happen with Tether? You don't have look that hard to find the kind of financial criminality banking is so often accused of persisting in the crypto community as well.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by trixie_ on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:45AM (#29013966)
Mt gox happened 8 years ago, and Tether just survived a pretty big test. These things actually build confidence in crypto. FDIC is only possible because the government can print money which underscores the how prone dollars are to inflation. As with everything - diversify, hold both.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by panarky on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:55AM (#29010293)
That's why it's either-or and not both-and.

You want reversibility and fraud prevention? Use an intermediary.

You want irrevocable finality and no intermediaries? You can do that too.

You're free to choose, nobody is forcing you to use one or the other.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by thr0wawayf00 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:20AM (#29013612)
Even with an intermediary, you still have to trust them with your credentials and it's not foolproof.

MT Gox was the biggest exchange in the world when it was hacked in 2014 and billions in bitcoin was stolen, it's account holders were totally left to dry. The freedom of choice is nonsense in an immutable, decentralized system where stuff like this can happen. If someone gets your private key from you directly or through a hosted exchange, that's it.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by arcticbull on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:06PM (#29006262)
Whose exactly is "their" assets? Assets belong to people, and they're also not broadly stored at banks.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by r00fus on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:11PM (#29006311)
Financial instruments are assets as well. Banks handle those all the time.
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by arcticbull on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:12PM (#29006317)
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by Kranar on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:23PM (#29007141)
One random person's blog post is not sufficient to disqualify centuries of economic and accounting literature that has classically defined cash to be a canonical asset class.

Currencies are universally listed at the top of any balance sheet, small or large company alike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_and_cash_equivalents

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by arcticbull on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:49PM (#29007392)
That's fair, I was off base. Withdrawn, but I'll leave it up so folks understand what you're replying to. Thanks for the correction!
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by New_California on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:57PM (#29006159)
1) Banks owning some Bitcoin does not imply Bitcoin needs banks.

2) Banks need Bitcoin though, because long-term everything else is going towards zero in Bitcoin terms.

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by bingohbangoh on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:30PM (#29006536)
It's funny because right now in New York state you technically can't trade bitcoin without at least one party having a proper BitLicense. [0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLicense

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by elliekelly on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:45PM (#29007347)
There are two pretty ginormous exemptions in the regulation that allow transactions in virtual currency without a BitLicense: https://govt.westlaw.com/nycrr/Document/I85908c6b253711e598d...
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by bingohbangoh on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @08:09PM (#29008071)
Ahhh that explains OpenSea operating in NYC.

This would only affect you if operating an exchange on behalf of somebody (eg Coinbase)

Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by thunkshift1 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:20PM (#29019288)
What if they ‘nationalise’ everyones btc holding?
Re:U.S. regulators exploring how banks could hold Bitcoin – ... by henriquez on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:48PM (#29006071)
Maybe the FDIC thinks they’re devilishly clever but are actually clueless.

Various world governments have been taking potshots at crypto currencies. It’s pretty obvious they can’t control them, so instead they try to undermine them, but thanks to their own incompetence they actually make crypto more attractive (and intractable) in the process.