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Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by dusted on Thursday October 21, 2021 @02:27AM (#28941056)
Wouldn't these "goggles" have exactly this effect? Instead of being silently lulled into the bubble by "the algorithm", users explicitly dig their own hole from which they can be certain never to cast eye upon an opposing idea.
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by aeternum on Thursday October 21, 2021 @02:40AM (#28941135)
As they describe in the paper, "at least the choice will be a conscious one". If someone wants a wide variety of sources and opposing ideas, there will be a goggle for that. If someone wants only anti-vax articles, there will probably be one for that too.

This is probably much better than what currently happens, where search engines become personalized but users don't realize it. That anti-vax person might think they are searching the whole web when google has quietly flagged them as a user who enjoys anti-vax articles and continues suggesting those sites, taking them further down the rabbit hole.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by KennyBlanken on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:47AM (#28941955)
> This is probably much better than what currently happens, where search engines become personalized but users don't realize it. That anti-vax person might think they are searching the whole web when google has quietly flagged them as a user who enjoys anti-vax articles and continues suggesting those sites, taking them further down the rabbit hole.

...what the what.

Did you just casually declare that Google is feeding people search results tailored to their political worldview? Because if so, you need to actually come up with something to support that sort of claim.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by jgilias on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:48AM (#28942303)
You're one of today's lucky 10000! [1]

Look up Google personalized search [2]. I guess only Google insiders know for sure what's the extent to which your search results get personalized, but it's common knowledge that this happens. It'd be also interesting to find out if they somehow try to reduce the personalization when it comes to 'political' interests. I'd wager that the answer is no.

And of course it's not just Google. Facebook and Twitter too. And probably every site with some kind of a feed trying to keep you engaged.

1. https://xkcd.com/1053/

2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Personalized_Search

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by kwhitefoot on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:17AM (#28942141)
No, they suggested that Google tailors results to the things related to the hits that you follow. His example was political but it was just that, an example.
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by hetspookjee on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:30AM (#28942224)
How could you possibly differentiate an extremely personalized profile, and a political worldview for that matter?
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by southerntofu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:01AM (#28942374)
So there's two things to consider:

1) Everything is political, and so are search results and suggestions

2) Personalized results/suggestions, moreover, tend to fit the perceived political views of the user (from the algorithm's perspective)

Google and Youtube (like many others) are well-known to have pushed neo-fascist and conspirationist propaganda to random bystanders (Alex Jones or Trump in the USA, Dieudonné or Soral in France) because their "controversial" viewpoints generate more user engagement. Likewise, Google search often promotes white/christian-supremacist "news" websites like FDeSouche in the top5 results for random queries.

Then, there's personalized recommendations. Once you've clicked one of these results, Google's algos will deem you interested in that kind of content, and suddenly it's impossible to avoid that bubble. It will keep recommending the same sites/channels everywhere you go, for months. That's why clicking "critically" on a link because you're curious what an "opposite side" has to say is a dangerous enterprise with recommendation algos: you'll be subtly yet persistently exposed to their propaganda ecosystem as a result.

I would personally welcome "Goggles" as a positive change. I often know precisely what i'm looking for (an article i saw a few years back), but stupid ranking algorithms make it impossible to find in the stream of information. There's not a one-size-fits-all algo that's going to please everyone: decentralizing this power is the only suitable way, in my humble opinion.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by cpr on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:26AM (#28942542)
Google and Youtube (like many others) are well-known to have pushed neo-fascist and conspirationist propaganda to random bystanders (Alex Jones or Trump in the USA, Dieudonné or Soral in France) because their "controversial" viewpoints generate more user engagement.

Right up until they ban them entirely.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by NoraCodes on Thursday October 21, 2021 @09:20AM (#28943946)
I wonder what the intended tone is here. I would argue that you're exactly right. Google wants to have their cake and eat it too - they want engagement through rage and unreality, but they don't want to be seen as enabling that kind of thing, so they do performative and largely useless measures like banning people who have large following elsewhere and putting Wikipedia links under Flat Earth articles, but don't actually address the core problem: that they make more money when people get angry for no reason, and thus they have to incentivize that kind of art and "journalism" on their platform.

We see this from the other side every year come Pride; companies put rainbow shit all over their sites while maintaining LGBTQ+ exclusive practices because they don't want to lose their bigoted customers.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by spinningslate on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:04AM (#28941685)
I wondered this too, though the sibling comments make good counterpoints.

I tend to look to nature for inspiration in thorny problems. For this one - essentially confirmation bias - genetic mutation seems an attractive metaphor. That is: there's always a bit of randomness thrown in. That could be dialled up/tuned to always include some contrarian answers.

I don't expect we'll all return to the great debating chambers of the past, but it'd be an interesting experiment at least: what would happen if every anti-vax search result included something on the benefits?

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by southerntofu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:03AM (#28942393)
Why not let people have their own worldviews? Don't you believe the benefits of self-organized communities far outweigh the downsides?

I'd much rather have 10 000 different communities who don't agree on anything, than have a strong hegemonic culture stepping on every disagreeing voice, as we currently have in most countries.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by dazc on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:10AM (#28941717)
Would you rather dig your own hole or find, at some point in time, you've actually been living in one?
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by kiryin on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:26AM (#28942195)
I'd rather not fall for the false dichotomy at all, and instead have the algorithm ensure that I won't end up in any sort of hole whatsoever, by choice or otherwise.
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by hetspookjee on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:33AM (#28942232)
Well, what about some kind of (private) program that runs on top of your set of goggles, and would tell you that your set of goggles that you frequent happens to slice and dice only tiny of the entire dataset and thus will hint to you that you're peering into holes.

I think this paper is great in delivering a first solution to this space. Sure it's not perfect but atleast miles better than an opaque box.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by southerntofu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:07AM (#28942427)
We humans tend to live in our "holes" quite comfortably. You may not realize it, but there's quite a lot of "invisible" social codes and expectations involved in human interactions with your surroundings, and these codes are far from universal.

Whether you believe in God(s), whether you trust the police, whether you're for community autonomy and collective ownership or wage slavery and private property, for jealousy or free love...

There's so many ways to live and for every individual, most of them will seem alien. When the "hole" is big enough and is crushing other holes with its cultural hegemony (eg. industrial capitalism) then it's harder to realize it's here in the first place, like in the movie Matrix ;)

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by kiryin on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:20AM (#28942500)
Is that somehow at odds with what I want? If I search for "can you trust the police," I want both sides of the story. I want information and opinions from varied sources in order to get a comprehensive picture of the topic, upon which I will base my own opinion. I do not want ready-made opinions to copy without thinking.
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by southerntofu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:26AM (#28942546)
Any form of curation, whether human or automated, will have biases and opinions. For example, historical encyclopedias were strongly in favor of the status quo. Even Wikipedia, which does a much better job, still has quirks and biases:

- the source reputability criteria prevents much of popular knowledge/culture to be referenced (police abuse example: first-hand witnesses are not considered reliable sources unless quoted by a big newspaper)

- the topic reputability criteria prevents many interesting figures from being referenced (see previous HN discussions about why women scientists are mostly absent from Wikipedia)

Neutrality is a lie. Everything is subjective. We can try to provide broader interpretation and critique, but no single entity can cover every aspect and worldview. In my view, that's a feature and not a bug.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by NoraCodes on Thursday October 21, 2021 @09:30AM (#28944051)
"both sides of the story" is already a hole. Why are there just two? Are they equally credible and valid on every issue? Do we want "both sides of the story" when it comes to the Holocaust or slavery, as we see playing out in Texas today? Do we want only two sides of the story when talking about complex policy measures or historical events?

As other commenters have pointed out, you will be in a filter bubble no matter what, because you cannot speak to every person, read every paper, or understand every point of view. Bias cannot be eliminated, only understood and corrected for.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by southerntofu on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:22AM (#28955482)
As a militant antifascist, i still find it interesting to have some reactionary perspectives to balance the dominant narrative. Some historical examples:

- abolition of slavery in the USA was not perceived by many (former-)slaves as social progress, but rather as legitimization of a new form of "wage slavery" where your master doesn't own you, but you owe them for food and housing... moreover, prison slavery is still a thing in most countries which do not recognize workers rights for incarcerated people (France, USA, etc)

- Hitler apologists point out that US army atrocities (during and after WWII) have been mostly erased from history books; on the other hand, Hitler's atrocities have been reduced to the eradication of Jews, whereas queers, handicapped folks and tsigans (among others who have also been eradicated) are barely mentioned if at all. Hitler is also "caricatured" as a genocidal freak, failing to represent his earlier figure which is a lot closer to many of our "presidents" across the globe than is comfortable to admit. After all, Hitler was presented by the media and industry (his biggest supports) as the candidate of reason and property against unions and marxists/anarchists and their rule of the mob

- Daech and other reactionary muslim militant groups insist on the atrocities of Western "democracies" to justify their own; these imperialist atrocities are never acknowledged by eg. France/USA who pretend they're on armed humanitarian missions against barbarism and patriarchy (an argument for colonization which dates back over a century!). This invisible spot in western worldview ("let's fix human rights with more bombs") leaves plenty of room for Daech to recruit young disillusioned folks who know their government is lying and killing innocent civilians abroad

Overall, i think any propaganda slips through your brain and leaves traces, just like any form of advertisement. So i can recommend as a general rule of thumb to never read neo-nazi/patriarchal/capitalist propaganda. However, when you're studying a precise topic, i believe getting points from all sides (not just two, as you pointed out) is an important practice that can help you develop a better understanding of the issue to overcome your own conditioning.

Especially in Global North republics who pretend to be democracies (but don't have any democratic features [0]), it can be hard and painful to acknowledge that our governments don't recognize or respect any of the fundamental rights they so eagerly accuse other nations of infringing on, that all political parties and corporations running the show are delusional maniacs, and that no "human rights" NGO will save us. Sure we all have human rights in theory, but practicing them would be considerably better!

[0] No, electing overlords every few years is not a democracy. Those electoral systems were precisely (historically) designed to prevent democracy which was seen as a danger to the 18th century elites.

Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by dusted on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:41AM (#28941918)
I'd rather not have to chose between two broken systems. I don't believe choice is good in this case. I don't think it's good that we can whitelist or blacklist parts of the world from ever entering our minds. Sure, there are lots of places that I know of, that I don't visit because I find them offensive. But sometimes they show up anyway, and while I most often won't agree with their views, I appreciate being reminded that they exist.
Re:Goggles: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web ... by soundnote on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:28AM (#28941839)
Better start believing in hole stories.