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Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by version_five on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:59PM (#28937332)
I don't see any massive red flags in the stuff reported.

I'm convinced based on what I know that Theranos engaged in deliberate fraud. But fraud is more than the sum of promotional practices that can be taken retrospectively or without context as sign of wrongdoing.

Having scripted demos that hide error messages is not really sketchy. It could be part of a fraud, or it could not, but it's not really telling.

I say this because we often see popular ethical judgements where it's made out that there is a clear line between good and bad and that because the key players were unethical, they just did a bunch of bad things. I don't see it that way. There are lots of individual small judgements, most of which could be completely benign, but that add up to a fraud in the bigger picture. It probably makes sense as part of a body of evidence in a trial, but it's not really as sensational as the tabloids would like it to be.

Incidentally, I think that Theranos and Enron are basically the same story (at least Bad Blood and The Smartest Guys in the Room are the same book). And the root cause in both is not direct lack of scruples, but believing that ideas are what's important and execution doesn't matter. The lesson to me, is that a good way to get into trouble you cant get out of (and both of these stories resulted in real people taking their lives) is to think that details don't matter and a good idea is all you need.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:28PM (#28937644)
> Having scripted demos that hide error messages is not really sketchy. It could be part of a fraud, or it could not, but it's not really telling.

They pricked investors fingers and implied that a Theranos machine would process the sample, but then they secretly ran the sample on a competitor's machine in another room:

> In demos of the company’s technology, investors would have their fingers pricked for testing alongside one of Theranos’ proprietary devices, but the actual test would be run in a lab away from prying eyes.

This would be the equivalent of a SaaS company setting up an API that just passed the calls through to a competitor's API, but then telling investors that their own platform was operational. You can run the pass-through API long enough to fake demos and raise money, but it's still fraud if you mislead investors to believe that you have the platform operational.

They weren't just hiding error messages or smoothing over rough edges. They were architecting fraudulent claims to investors.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by the_jeremy on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:18PM (#28938121)
The first iPhone demo involved bringing in a portable cell tower, hardcoding signal strength to always show 5 bars, and repeatedly swapping out phones throughout the demo because using one through the whole presentation would have caused it to crash[0].

I believe Theranos was worse in many ways, but running misleading demos to drum up hype sounds pretty par for the SV course.

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magazine/and-then-steve-s..., https://www.techspot.com/news/54246-former-apple-engineer-re...

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by Aloha on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:35PM (#28938270)
Bringing in a COW is standard course when you have a large number of people in one place, even in 2007.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by eli on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:56PM (#28937914)
Pretty sure a non-zero number of AI/ML startups were actually just feeding data to humans, at least at the start.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by spiffytech on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:14PM (#28938096)
There was a story earlier this year about a startup that had a government contract to detect crime using AI, but turned out not to actually have any AI technology, instead appearing to pass tasks to humans: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkd7pk/banjo-ai-surveillance...
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by woeirua on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:34PM (#28938267)
This is not a problem if you're transparent about what you're doing. If you say, the AI/ML will do this, but we're still perfecting the algorithm so we have humans assist it right now. No problem.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by HWR_14 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:05PM (#28938528)
There was just a report on HN about Expensify doing that. I don't know if they switched to AI, or if it's still just people.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:59PM (#28937944)
“At least at the start” is possibly ok if you have a path forward to get to your goal. Theranos had no path.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by spiffytech on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:21PM (#28938149)
> “At least at the start” is possibly ok if you have a path forward to get to your goal.

Only if you're not misrepresenting your capabilities to investors or customers.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by AndyNemmity on Thursday October 21, 2021 @12:25PM (#28946853)
It's tricky. If you're saying what you will do, and show it as it should look, while you continue to develop it really working, and it's not endangering health like in the case of Theranos, I have a hard time seeing the issue.

I've never been in a situation where it literally didn't work though over time, and before customer usage.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by AndyNemmity on Thursday October 21, 2021 @12:24PM (#28946830)
can confirm a few examples. the key is at the start though, they all made it there over some time.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:49PM (#28937841)
These kinds of responses infuriate me. I also get so frustrated by so much of the media taking the line of "This was just Silicon Valley's 'Fake it til you make it' culture taken to the extreme."

Nonsense. I've worked in startups my entire 20+ year career, and while we've certainly spun or promoted things to the extreme, the line of "outright lying" was never gray.

Take for example the initial iPhone demo by Steve Jobs. It's been mentioned many times before that the demo had to be run in a specific, exact order, or else the OS would crash. That's fine, but nothing in those demos were faked. It all did exactly what he demoed, live. It would have been a much different story, if, for example, Jobs just demoed a video with surreptitious pause and play buttons. That would have been fraud, and that's much less than what Theranos faked here.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by torgoguys on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:27PM (#28938199)
>These kinds of responses infuriate me. I also get so frustrated by so much of the media taking the line of "This was just Silicon Valley's 'Fake it til you make it' culture taken to the extreme."

Yeah, me too. In this case, Theranos was saying they were going to demo their revolutionary lab testing process. They would take the blood sample from the participants being demoed to, put them in a cartridge that then went into the machine, and the machine would light up and start making noises. They would lead the people out of the room and other employees would secretly grab the blood from the machine and process it with a very labor intensive manual process (normally taking a couple of hours). When the participants were given their results, the implication was that Theranos' revolutionary machine did all the work.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:12PM (#28938080)
> It would have been a much different story, if, for example, Jobs just demoed a video with surreptitious pause and play buttons. That would have been fraud

Not really.

I mean the iPhone did hit the shelves not long after that demo. So anyone on the street could try one out (they had physical demo units in store). Theranos wouldn't let anyone just play with their machine.

But we're talking about a company that has a track record at shipping OSes (Apple). Even if they faked the iPhone demo, it would still have been believable that Apple could write an OS for a portable device.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by the_jeremy on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:28PM (#28938201)
> but nothing in those demos were faked

The signal strength was hardcoded to always show 5 bars during the demo, but I think your overall point is valid.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by adolph on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:23PM (#28939139)
Next you’ll tell us they don’t actually take all pictures of iPhones at exactly 9:41

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/apple-products-time-941-pho...

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by arthurcolle on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:27PM (#28938695)
That's hilarious - do you know if they still do this?
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by noisem4ker on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:58AM (#28943150)
I don't know to what degree, but both manufacturers and carriers absolutely do like to mess with reported signal strength.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18737008

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by goldcd on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:23PM (#28937591)
I think having scripted demos that hide error messages is sketchy, if you're representing the demo as "being your product". You're saying "this is my product" and you're showing something that "isn't your product".

Doesn't mean I'm against demos - but normally you can come up with a slice (or two if you're lucky) through it that genuinely works and shows for a representative scenario (and if your arm's twisted you just say that with more money, you can support more scenarios).

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by FireBeyond on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:19PM (#28938629)
They literally HID the lab that had the actual devices from FDA inspectors. In a B-movie style "slide a cabinet in front of the door" style deception.

Don't try to handwave that away as "the sum of promotional practices". That's abject fraud, not "faking it til you make it".

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by rtkwe on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:24PM (#28937603)
They were telling investors the tests were actually running on machines though which is factually untrue and were lying in materials sent to investors about the testing done on devices and the validation of those tests. This is far more than just having a narrow slice demo and saying "this is a demo of what X will be like." What they were doing was directly lying about what the machines were doing and what they were capable of doing, beyond just lying to investors they pushed it out to the public using shoddy validation techniques which gave people incorrect test results.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by Barrin92 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:57PM (#28938475)
>I don't see any massive red flags in the stuff reported.

did you see the part where they ran fraudulent tests on actual cancer patients?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-patients-hurt-by-theranos-1...

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:58PM (#28937932)
You may do scripted demos or avoiding problematic errors. But usually you will have some kind of path to get where you want to be.

From what I have read Theranos had nothing. They had no idea how they could make their machines work. There was no new technology or new insight. They just lied blatantly.

That’s on a different level from the usual cheating people do at demos.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by adolph on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:25PM (#28939156)
Theranos has better than nothing. They have patents!

https://patents.justia.com/assignee/theranos-inc

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by HWR_14 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:03PM (#28938514)
You brought up Enron, so you should be very aware that " But fraud is more than the sum of promotional practices that can be taken retrospectively or without context as sign of wrongdoing." is the exact opposite of the legal strategy they used in Enron's prosecution. Specifically, they never tried to say any specific act was illegal, just the sum of all the acts.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by outworlder on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:16PM (#28937530)
Hiding error messages is one thing.

What about showcasing devices that pretended to work but then shipping the tests to be run in normal labs?

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by dfsegoat on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:25PM (#28937621)
> What about showcasing devices that pretended to work but then shipping the tests to be run in normal labs?

They didn't even have any basic systems validation / quality management documentation, which is how they racked up their first FDA inspection violations.

This really should have been obvious to anyone doing due diligence in a regulated space (devices, pharma, etc.).

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by Breza on Friday October 22, 2021 @12:08AM (#28953676)
After reading Bad Blood, I can't help but wonder if CVS spotted the scam and stayed away.
Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by wolverine876 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:57PM (#28937925)
While the behavior is atrocious IMHO, the article doesn't say the tests were run in 'normal labs':

> the actual test would be run in a lab away from prying eyes

That lab could have been using a Theranos machine, but with errors displayed, etc.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by dgreensp on Thursday October 21, 2021 @09:52AM (#28944371)
I try to be less judgmental and reactive than the norm about evaluating others’ actions, too, but I question whether the logic you are using to distance them from wrongdoing is really sound or necessary.

If they did a bunch of unethical stuff that adds up to fraud, as you agree, what does it matter if some individual actions, if you completely take them out of context, look at them through the right lens, and create a distinction between “unethical” and “bad,” aren’t necessarily bad? Maybe the reason no one is saying that is because no one is doing that, because it’s not relevant.

The individual actions are certainly sketchy, IMO. And red flags. Is there a definite semantic difference? It seems like splitting hairs. No single action by itself implies fraud, though significant acts of lying make a case.

Theranos’s level of deception is not the norm. Nor is it legal or ok.

You conclude by sort of saying you just aren’t going to focus on the misconduct aspect of things. But it is still there.

Re:Theranos devices ran “null protocol” to skip actual demo ... by tialaramex on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:27AM (#28942554)
So, fraud is a set of crimes which require intent. Specifically, they require intent to either gain from dishonesty or to cause another to lose through your dishonesty.

Thus, dishonesty means you're skating on thin ice because a prosecutor only needs to show intent to gain (or for another to lose) and you're done. Much better to be honest and eliminate this whole thrust altogether. Intent to gain without dishonesty isn't a crime and would be generally seen as admirable.