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Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by jedberg on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:38PM (#28936172)
> That is why the increasing cost of craftsmanship, while real, cannot account for the decline of neighborhood beauty.

It's not the cost, it's the availability. I'm currently in the process of a home renovation. If you want a master craftsman to build you say, kitchen cabinets, you may have to wait years for them to be available.

Or you can go to the store and buy custom built cabinets from a factory and have them in a few weeks.

It's the same with the outside of the house. You can build a generic outside with supplies from Home Depot, or if you're really fancy the contractor's supply depot, or wait years for a master to do a custom job for you.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by yeetaccount on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:51PM (#28938424)
Same reason we don’t have stone masons in every town nowadays. Too much time, too much material, not enough customer volume. Can’t operate with today’s (lack of) disposable income and material availability being diluted by an increasing population.

The standard of living has gone up IMHO bc of increased efficiency in the face of dwindling resources. We don’t all live in stone mansions with servants, but a nice apartment built to code as cheaply as possible with electricity, AC and a roomba is by some measures a better life than anyone on the planet had 100 years ago. As a builder, you make more money too.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:06PM (#28938999)
There's actually way more disposable income today than even 100 years ago. We just spend it on things that didn't exist before like car insurance and iPhones.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by advael on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:59PM (#28939412)
What do you consider "disposable income"?

Car insurance is legally mandatory if you drive a car. If your income is predicated on being able to commute by car (as it is for many Americans, though hopefully a trend toward remote work will ameliorate this somewhat) then your insurance is no more optional than your gas.

People also talk about smartphones as though they're a luxury item, but for most intents and purposes owning one can be viewed as required. Tons of services, including your bank, require a cell phone for authentication, if not to use their services at all. Everyone from your boss to your spouse has an expectation that you can be reached most if not all of the time. I try to avoid being reachable at all times, but this is a luxury I can afford because I'm relatively well-off and technologically adept, and I still can't get around 2FA requirements for everything.

So like, if that stuff is bought with "disposable income", is rent?

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by adventured on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:29PM (#28939560)
Disposable income in the US is at record highs, both at the median and average, inflation adjusted. It has not gone down.

And the median and average for disposable income is a lot higher in the US than in Europe. US disposable income is only comparable to the most affluent nations of Europe: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland.

Americans waste an enormous amount of money on consumer garbage. Until recently it was very common for households to have $150-$200 / month cable or satellite TV plans. It's still common, just slightly less so thanks to Netflix etc. $200-$300 family smartphone plans are common.

Americans also flip in and out of cars frequently, losing huge sums of money doing it. And they buy ridiculously over-priced new vehicles, which they keep for relatively short periods of time.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by rsj_hn on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:07PM (#28939459)
"Disposable income" is not some vague philosophical term that we have to haggle over. It simply means income minus taxes paid to government.

Please please don't redefine economic terms to suit your intuitive belief about what a word "should" mean because you are wading into an area where you don't know the agreed upon terminology. That impedes communication.

If you want to refer to income after paying necessities, then this is "discretionary income".

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by advael on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:51PM (#28939669)
I wasn't aware this was a technical term, but if we insist on this usage, the post I'm responding to is even less meaningful, because this is drawing a pedantic distinction between money that's tied up in expenses and thus, at any rate, not money that the relevant party is really making decisions about
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @11:46PM (#28939972)
I mean do you really want to compare my disposable income with my great grandparents? They'd hit me up side the head if they knew how much I blow on weed a month and random bullshit like latex Halloween costumes. To them eating out was a luxury they could afford maybe once or twice a year. I eat out like every other day.

Our standards are way higher these days cause the truth is we're all spoiled.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by supermatt on Thursday October 21, 2021 @01:37AM (#28940729)
You keep saying disposable income (money after taxes) when you mean discretionary income (money after necessary expenses such as rent, bills, transportation and food).
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @01:56AM (#28940849)
Laymen versus technical. If I'm talking to a random person on the street I'm gonna say disposable. But yes I mean discretionary. My discretionary income is still huge. Well over 50% of my paycheck. It's also not even fair to say though because it's still my choice to have upgraded my living situation. Sure I'm locked in now but I could sell my house and downgrade at any time and my discretionary will go up.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by supermatt on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:06AM (#28942075)
Unfortunately, your confusion is endemic of the problem with government statistics using disposable income as an indicator of prosperity, and is even being quoted by others in this thread. Indeed, you likely googled "historical disposable income" to back up your statement - which is exactly the problem with using the incorrect term.

I wont make the comparison to 100 years ago (as you did) because that was a period of time including 2 world wars and the great depression., But adjusted for inflation, people generally have LESS discretionary income now than they did in the 60s. Again, this is hard to corroborate with official poverty statistics due to changes in the cost of living (and conversely, the provision of benefits such as food stamps), which are frequently petitioned to be amended.

Over 12% of americans have such low discretionary income they have to rely on food banks - a figure comparable to the 1970s.

10x more people in the UK are accessing emergency food from food banks than they did 10 years ago.

It is a terrible state of affairs, to be honest. Please dont use disposable income :)

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @09:55AM (#28944425)
I'm not confused lol. In America homes are just bigger now than they used to be. You can still go small though. No one said you had to take on a huge mortgage. That's why discretionary is a bad metric to use.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by supermatt on Thursday October 21, 2021 @10:35AM (#28945045)
I see, so people are in poverty because their houses are too big...

Maybe you should check your privilege. Your 50% discretionary income is FAR from the norm.

Median income is less than 45k (gross - this means before tax, etc) - than means 50% of the population earn LESS than that. 25% earn less than 24k. 10% earn less than $9k...

These people cant afford a small house, let alone a big one...

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @05:25PM (#28951002)
Lol this is hacker news. I could care less what you think about my privilege. It's hilarious that you're assuming my so-called privledge when my family came to the USA with almost nothing. I'm not here to be your little social justice pawn while you make assumptions.

Just to be clear so there's no ambiguity. I don't care about the poor in america. I seriously could care less. My entire family immigrated to the USA in the 90s and none of them are poor. They all self made themselves into upper middle class lives within 20 years. Meanwhile Americans born in America with every advantage and privilege just whine all day and want more more more for nothing.

Also sick and tired of constantly having social justice internet warriors tell me I'm privileged when I'm literally self made from zero. It's not privileged when you work your way up from fast food to six figures tech work. that's called "earning" things. Please learn the difference.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by supermatt on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:50PM (#28952265)
you are privileged.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by 0x0nyandesu on Thursday October 21, 2021 @08:54PM (#28952619)
No one cares about your little opinions
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by supermatt on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:24AM (#28956899)
The reality is you are spouting crap about people being poor because (apparently) their houses are too big (??), while also not knowing (VERY) basic economic terms. I was just giving you facts.

Honestly, your lack of awareness is quite astounding - but it appears that you are overentitled as well as privileged, so that kind of makes sense.

Im sorry you care so much about my opinion.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by harryh on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:46PM (#28936284)
If demand so significantly exceeds supply, why aren't folks with these skills raising prices?
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by chaircher on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:06PM (#28936622)
A lot of these people prefer the stability of knowing their income over a long period of time, rather than focusing on maximising profitability and therefore losing time working on their craft and also introducing instability longer term. My job is similar to this sort of thing and I have gone down the maximising profit route, and even though I've not pushed it to an extreme it can be difficult to stay disciplined about it. You lose a lot of time to it, as well as intelectual bandwidth - you're bouncing back and forth between business brain and craft brain a lot more. Crafts people also tend to be more community orientated which likely reflects in their pricing.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by harryh on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:16PM (#28936757)
Super interesting answer. Thanks!
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by jedberg on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:47PM (#28936309)
They already charge a significant amount. But that doesn't increase the supply of master craftsmen. You can't just make more masters. :)

Also, there is still a price ceiling. If they charge too much, people will choose the cheaper alternatives even if they aren't as good.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by Gigachad on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:16PM (#28938602)
> You can't just make more masters.

You can given enough time. Your second point is more likely the real reason. These jobs might seem to pay lots from the outside but if you dedicated the same time to a more boring job like management you very quickly make a lot more money with almost unlimited room to bump your prices.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by Sebb767 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:43PM (#28938821)
> These jobs might seem to pay lots from the outside but if you dedicated the same time to a more boring job like management you very quickly make a lot more money with almost unlimited room to bump your prices.

This is from a German perspective, but here this is absolutely untrue. Masters earn a hell of a lot of money and business is basically limitless, even for masters. Being charged 120€-150€ per hour plus drive for a master and an apprentice is not unusual.

Add to that that they start earning 5-9 years earlier. Sure, they start lower, but they have a lot of time to catch up as well as save money. In my circles, these guys drove awesome cars while us students survived still survived on ramen (or parents).

Lastly, you can absolutely scale your business. If you go on to be a freelancer or even make your own company and hire people, you can get very far, if you intend to do so.

Sure, the absolute top of white collar workers might earn more; eight digits is probably not going to happen. That being said, that's the 1% of the 1%. Here in Germany, 100k€ per year is already a really high salary and to get there in white collar work, you'll need to make quite some career jumps. For masters, on the other hand, this is absolutely doable if you don't suck at your job.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by OJFord on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:21PM (#28938151)
Not to discount the answer you've had, but to offer another factor:

100 * £10 > 50 * £19

It plays into the other really: you have to multiply your fee by more than the reduction in volume to make more money; if you break even on the trade, in a way that's great, less work same money, but now you're not practicing.

So there's a trade-off there, and for it to be obviously worth it, there really has to be a significantly outsized boost to fee compared to reduction in number of people prepared to pay it, that just isn't going to happen unless you had it really wrong to begin with.

(Maybe if you're already on the very high designer end you can suddenly go 10x or more as a result of being 'discovered' or going 'viral'? But not lower on the ladder, like the difference between DIY shop 'it works' vs. bespoke; carpenter vs. joiner; as discussed above.)

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by rdtwo on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:37PM (#28938283)
Because people don’t actually want to pay 5x-10x for craft items and that’s how much it costs. Craftsmen are in competition with labor in the 3rd world that gets paid 2-10$ a day instead of 50$ an hour
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by hammock on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:44PM (#28938355)
>It's not the cost, it's the availability. I'm currently in the process of a home renovation. If you want a master craftsman to build you say, kitchen cabinets, you may have to wait years for them to be available.

Crown molding and things went out WAY before any of these supply chain issues you've brought up from the last 1-2 years.

The cost of trim wood is exponentially more than it was 50 years ago, and on top of that you cant find anyone who knows how to make custom ornamented trim.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by mips_avatar on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:30PM (#28936944)
That's where I think there's hope for a third option. Where I grew up there were a lot of Sears catalog homes, and they were really nice. Those were all manufactured and are a whole lot more beautiful than a builder grade home today.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:25PM (#28937623)
Cabinet making is a lost art. It used to be very common, but now most cabinetry is mass produced in factories so there aren't many people around who are skilled in the art.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by rdtwo on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:39PM (#28938297)
It’s slow and inefficient without scale and tooling. Just like how most people don’t have custom cars because it’s too expensive
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by a2tech on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:41PM (#28938321)
Cabinets are not almost exclusively made to order in factories. At least the ones that aren't picked up in a box at Lowes. We just had a new bathroom installed and each cabinet was hand made--in a factory settings of course, to our specifications.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by conductr on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:33PM (#28939580)
> hand made

It was most likely CNC made and hand assembled. The guy doing the assembly would have no clue what to do without the CNC’d parts. The guy designing the CAD files would have no clue how to assemble the CNC’d parts. Neither of them know how to install the cabinets in your bathroom. This used to all be done by the same guy.

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:37PM (#28939261)
A lot of them are picked up in a box at Lowes (or Depot or Ikea). Sure you can have custom ones made in a factory, but 60+ years ago most every carpenter worth his (well, they mostly were male then) salt knew how to make decent cabinets. I went to an estate sale a few years back where the deceased had been a cabinet maker - the cabinets and homemade furniture were amazing.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by saila on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:07PM (#28936640)
That's the current situation, but what about the past several decades? The article claims that very few attractive neighborhoods were built in the US post WWII.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by mixmastamyk on Thursday October 21, 2021 @02:09AM (#28940940)
The cheap box aesthetic peaked in the sixties.
Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by smileysteve on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:49PM (#28937196)
Or you can buy Ikea cabinets and have whatever quality you build (+ better hinges than prebuilt)

Plus

Re:Why can't we build nice neighborhoods anymore? by lapsed_pacifist on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:08PM (#28938044)
Baumels' Cost Disease.