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Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by trident5000 on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:12PM (#28879382)
In what world does it take 22 billion dollars to develop an AR goggle program. Its not a mystery why we have out of control spending and certain groups lobby and get wonderfully rich off the governments incompetence and corruption.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:30PM (#28879630)
In a world where engineers at MSFT make $300k+ - that pays ~70k engineers for a year.

There are nowhere near 70k engineers working on this - I'd be surprised if even 7k - but this has been in development for years, and will be in development for a few more.

Depending on how many headsets they planned to deliver - I wouldn't be surprised if they each cost more than $1k - there are like 60k infantry soldiers - so that could easily cost >$60M.

I'd imagine they spent >$100M lobbying on this and Jedi.

I can't see how this would cost anywhere near $22Bn - but military contractors are known to have profit margins >30%.

I'm obviously missing a lot of things - but I wouldn't be surprised if this cost MSFT >$10Bn.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by wespiser_2018 on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:38PM (#28879752)
The one piece of this that might end up costing a ton of money is the testing using live soldiers. Each of those deployments, along with all the heavy equipment is a lot of money. I saw they already have 80k hours of soldier feedback, so in part, that's where some of the money goes. The rest, of course, is figuring out how to make the HoloLens light and reliable, which no one has ever done. Idk, this could be a huge money pit. The Army has tried this idea before and failed. Now might be the time, or this could be another JSF spending fiasco. Either way, MSFT is doing well.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by texasbigdata on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:35PM (#28879694)
The headsets currently retail for $6k each and they are consumer not military specs.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by wtf_is_up on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:05PM (#28880117)
>but military contractors are known to have profit margins >30%.

Based on what data? Contract bidders must show all direct and indirect costs and are typically allowed to price in ~10% profit when submitting their proposal. In fact, you can look at historical financial data for LMT, NOC, GD, etc and see profit margin float around 7-10%. A proposal with 30% profit margin baked in would be laughed out of the selection committee.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by R0b0t1 on Friday October 15, 2021 @07:33PM (#28884322)
I'm not sure about newer requirements but tricks I've heard of include exploding material costs after the fact, or exploiting some less tracked pressure relief in the contract that exists to eat up cost overruns.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by ahepp on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:52PM (#28879951)
$1k? I would guess $10k+
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by cryptica on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:46PM (#28879867)
This is job creation porn. These engineers don't deserve any public money, let alone to prop up their $300K per year salaries.

Microsoft could get better engineers for cheaper. Including within the US. The problem is that this isn't about engineering. It's a scheme.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:38PM (#28880540)
If MSFT could get better engineers for cheaper - they would. They're a business... Not a charity to engineers.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by cryptica on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:45PM (#28880647)
This is BS. I know how the interview process works. All these big corporations optimize their recruitment processes around pedigree (matched to the curriculum of top universities). They don't look at track record at all; when track record is a far better indication of future performance. That's why their engineers are so incompetent and it costs so much money for them to produce anything.

They have become so incompetent that they don't even have the talent necessary to know what talent looks like when recruiting.

Corporate engineers will never hire other engineers who are better than them (for political reasons), so the engineering talent in these companies has been degrading for years as the bureaucracy and internal politics has increased.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by ahepp on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:17PM (#28881905)
You're comparing corporate big tech to what, the lean and scrappy traditional military contractors? The level of incompetence in the military sector (private and public) is unfathomable unless you experience it in person.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by zeusk on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:20PM (#28882672)
I work at MSFT, and all I can say is you're quite wrong
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by y4mi on Friday October 15, 2021 @02:04PM (#28880912)
> when track record is a far better indication of future performance

Not all experience transfers over and developing completely new technology (both hardware and software in combination) is extremely hard. I think you're vastly underestimating the value people get from these university degrees when they're actually pioneering new things and actually learned the topics they were taught.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:37PM (#28882137)
> They have become so incompetent that they don't even have the talent necessary to know what talent looks like when recruiting.

Do you work at MSFT? How do you know so much about their competence?

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by cryptica on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:32AM (#28887136)
I know people who work at Microsoft and I can see what kind of software solutions they produce. Of course they do produce some good stuff, they have a few pockets of talent. They've always been strong with gaming and IDEs for example. But anything related to web technologies is just a failure. They don't understand the web. Most of the business they get is due to legacy reasons (e.g. companies who use Azure because their legacy software won't run on anything else). They just come up with solutions and then try to forcibly shove it down developers' throats.

One reason why they suck at web is because they suck at interoperability. They can't do open source properly. They don't know how to optimize software for maximum compatibility. This is because vendor lock-in is the enemy of compatibility and interoperability. Vendor lock-in is in their DNA; everything they do is about lock-in. Their software is all about complex, rigid interfaces; this is how they achieve lock-in but it makes it difficult to integrate their solutions into third party software (high friction, high entry barriers) and difficult to maintain/update.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by onlyrealcuzzo on Saturday October 16, 2021 @10:18AM (#28888039)
> can't do open source properly.

VScode?

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by yibg on Friday October 15, 2021 @07:11PM (#28884198)
How do you gauge track record? Just take the candidate's word for it or do you assess for yourself some how?
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by cryptica on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:46AM (#28887183)
Look at past software they've worked on, ask questions about it. If they have open source stuff, look at their code. Ask them about their design decisions; why they designed things a certain way.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by m0zg on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:07PM (#28883151)
I worked with a Federal Contractor once (you, as a rule, have to go through a middleman to work with US Govt, and that's where most of the profit ends up). Their requirement was that we use their hardware in their datacenter to do our work and never move data out of there. So they asked us for configs. I priced it out, it came to something like $120K in total, sent them the specs. They tore it up and bought $1.2M worth of hardware instead. Insane CPUs, maxed out RAM, Infiniband, you name it. We didn't need any of that. Literally 10x the price. Ever since then I have extra bad taste in my mouth when filing my taxes, and I know for a fact that merely passing money through the government makes most of it disappear into a black hole.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by hooande on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:01PM (#28883629)
The tax dollars didn't completely disappear. They were used to pay you and hundreds of thousands of others
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by m0zg on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:05PM (#28883662)
This is the classical "broken window fallacy", for which there are multiple convincing refutations. I'm sure you can find them yourself. But besides that, wouldn't you want most of your tax money spent on the things it is purportedly spent on (setting aside even whether spending it on those things makes sense in the first place, which is something we the people have zero control over), without leaving most of it in the pockets of whoever owns the federal contractor?
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by jakey_bakey on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:58PM (#28880019)
Playing devils advocate here, Magic Leap has managed to burn through $3.5 billion and has made no achievements of note - instead of solving the two primary optics challenges of AR, they allocated their capital to make blacks look slightly blacker.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by ydkme on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:26PM (#28879558)
Two thoughts:

- I'd be very surprised if Apple releases their AR headset without a similar-size (70% or more) investment over the preceding decade. RDT&E for environment-aware devices is incredibly expensive.

- Defense funding and procurement amounts often shock those not in the industry, but the truth is that the entire market for most of what the DoD funds is...the DoD. Sure, a lot of the components and IP can be reused in the commercial sector, but for most programs the DoD has to fund both the initial R&D and the unit sales, because the market is so much smaller and device sales are heavily restricted (e.g. ITAR). The DoD also has MUCH broader and stricter requirements for security, safety, reliability, and compliance with a daunting array of standards and processes than the commercial industry. To be clear, this is on net a good thing for the DoD and by extension the rest of the USA, but it does increase development costs.

Certainly there is profit being made by Microsoft here, that's kind of the point of partnering with the DoD. But the intuitive comparison of "DoD programs should cost the same as developing a commercial equivalent" that many of us make is fundamentally apples and oranges in both the product development and the economics.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by wespiser_2018 on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:32PM (#28879665)
A maze or requirement, bureaucracy, and interoperability with existing and TBD systems? Software is expensive to build. Reliable software all that much more.

If you consider an alternative, just make an app and stick phone on a rifle, sure, that will work for 90% of the stuff you want to do, but it would break and that's bad. A true "heads up display" that you can bet your life on, anywhere on earth, at any time, is just a truly massive undertaking.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by dralley on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:36PM (#28879725)
I'm sorry but even taking into account the clusterf*** of government procurement this is a truly obscene price tag. Even by government standards, this is ridiculous.

It's half as much as the development of the entire flipping Space Shuttle. It's more than Apple's entire yearly R&D budget. It's more than the James Webb Space Telescope and the entire Hubble program (including operations and the repairs that were needed post-launch) combined. It's roughly the cost of 8 Mars rovers of the same type as Curiosity / Perseverance.

This is worse, even, than the Joint Strike Fighter program, which at least started out reasonably with only a pair of 1 billion dollar grants handed out to Boeing and Lockheed to develop two functional prototype fighter aircraft (never mind how the costs spiraled later).

Setting aside the question of how much it should or shouldn't cost to develop such a product, it's absolute insanity to do it with a single massive project. The DoD loves to claim in public they're trying to be more agile, and this is the exact opposite of that. This ought to have been done $100 million (or less) at a time with limited initial scope and incrementally expanding goals.

Don't make excuses for this. There is no possible justification.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by whb07 on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:20PM (#28884825)
I generally agree with you, but 2021 USD is literally trash vs 1980 USD.

For reference, an ounce of gold in the peak at 1980 (which was a long while peak btw) was $800ish, an ounce of gold today is $1800. So more than 2x.

So $22B today is more like $10B in 1980.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by dralley on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:49PM (#28885138)
I tried to use inflation adjusted costs. The "original" development cost of the Space Shuttle was, actually, about 10 billion dollars.

Which is around 49 billion in 2020 dollars, adjusted for inflation (gold is a poor comparison, it's closer to 5x than 2x).

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by paganel on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:44PM (#28879834)
> true "heads up display" that you can bet your life on, anywhere on earth, at any time, is just a truly massive undertaking.

At some point you have to make a cost-benefit analysis and look at the bigger picture. For example and in this particular case, yes, spending let’s say 10 billion instead of 22 billion for a rougher solution might increase the dead count on the battlefield in the near future, but if those 12 billion that you’ve now saved go to better free education at home (more engineers in the future to design better weapons) or/and to free healthcare (more fit soldiers in the future) maybe it will all even out at a higher threshold.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by jjk166 on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:14PM (#28880210)
> If you consider an alternative, just make an app and stick phone on a rifle, sure, that will work for 90% of the stuff you want to do, but it would break and that's bad.

Given that soldiers are currently getting by with something that works 0% of the time, the assumption that 90% isn't good enough seems highly suspect. Exactly how many more soldiers will be saved by developing a true heads up display versus an off the shelf app running on a ruggedized phone?

This seems like an obvious case of a failure to actually define requirements and make real engineering decisions.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by wespiser_2018 on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:19AM (#28885516)
I don't think it's a question of "saving" soldiers, sadly, but rather, "how much more efficient will they be, especially on the attack. I don't think it's a 0% solution right now: the infantry has a lot of technology: radios, drones, and is getting more. Integrated it is just the next step.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by darkerside on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:38PM (#28879740)
In your simplest web software, there's the first 80% and the second 80%. With projects like this, which are literally life and death, there's many more 80%s to be considered and executed.

Do you ask why space travel is expensive? It's arguably much simpler than this is.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by jjk166 on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:19PM (#28880271)
If a rocket explodes, the astronauts die.

If a pair of goggles fails, the soldier takes them off.

These are the same people who equipped soldiers in Vietnam with a rifle that jams due to mud. The idea that military hardware has to be many times more reliable than space hardware is absurd.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by darkerside on Friday October 15, 2021 @02:30PM (#28881259)
Sometimes the rocket fails but the astronaut makes it back (Apollo 13). Sometimes the goggles fail, and the soldier misjudges a drop and breaks his leg, or walks into a known blast radius and dies, or misidentifies and kills a civilian.

Either way, if this is worth doing -- and I agree with you that it's a big, big if -- it is worth doing right.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by jjk166 on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:46PM (#28882238)
Astronauts surviving a failure is a once in a generation event that gets memorialized forever in movies and literature. Soldiers' equipment failing is a Tuesday.

Increased situational awareness has value, but it is a clear case of diminishing returns. Exactly what the cutoff ought to be is debatable, but that the cutoff exists is certain.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by darkerside on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:12AM (#28929718)
And this is an argument for investing less? Just because you are personally normalized to something doesn't make it acceptable.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by wespiser_2018 on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:20PM (#28880291)
Agreed. We've been to space, understand the risks, and have a decent understanding that X dollars pays for Y in LEO. This is an almost entirely greenfield project, so who knows if the deliverables will even be useful.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by cryptica on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:39PM (#28879767)
We all have nuclear weapons, why do we need rifles and infantry? This narrative is total BS. Is the goal to waste money today in order to be able to waste even more money later on countries like Iraq and Afganistan? We've seen what those rifles are used for... These rifles would be more useful to society if politicians would just shove them up their ***!
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by Shadonototra on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:25PM (#28885068)
I like your comments, always on point, keep it up, you are not alone in this war
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by ahepp on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:55PM (#28879984)
It was a competitive bidding process, no? I don't mean to suggest there aren't huge problems with the army's acquisition process, but it seems no one wanted to make them for less.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by trident5000 on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:14PM (#28880211)
I dont think the list of contractors the Army considers is very deep; its not competitive in a true sense. That may be part of the problem.
Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by ahepp on Friday October 15, 2021 @02:58PM (#28881635)
I think a lot of what stifles competition is the military itself. They aren't a good customer. They have lots of broken legacy systems. There are serious reputational risks.

I don't really mean to suggest 22b is too low a cash prize, but I imagine it takes a lot to overcome the barriers that have been wilfully erected. Much less the ones discreetly erected by incumbent military contractors.

Re:Army delays $22B augmented reality goggle program by greenreptar on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:39PM (#28885110)
it's "up to 22 billion over 10 years." So $2b/year once things get moving. They're still in testing, so likely less than that figure.