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Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by KennyBlanken on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:47AM (#28875395)
Your comment boils down to a false dilemma fallacy between "FAA blindly trusts manufacturers" and "FAA conducts their own testing and validation." Clearly they could have been more actively reviewing stuff coming from Boeing, or engaging in some level of auditing.

If the FAA had paid attention they would have seen a company desperate to compete modifying numerous basic characteristics of an airplane to the point of making it aerodynamically unstable, using a flight control system as a bandaid to fix this.

Not to mention being such massively cheap assholes that they literally didn't install warning lights in the cockpit to tell the pilots when the sensor their flight computer would use to override control inputs, had failed.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by asah on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:33AM (#28875622)
Actually, this is a sauce effect of the complexity of modern systems: regulators have no choice but to trust companies and regulate the results of tests, with heavy penalties for cheating. Consider pharmaceutical trials: it's impractical for the FDA to check on each patient. Financial audits often assume the client isn't directly lying to the auditor, with criminal penalties as the disincentive.

The alternative requires raising costs and slowing progress and innovation, which is a nonstart in a competitive environment such as Boeing vs Airbus.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by OneTimePetes on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:57AM (#28875747)
It can be done, it just costs money. It can not be done within the liberal frame of mind, were everything that costs money is tax and thus theft.

So why not reformulate it correctly. In my ideology, it is not possible to solve this problem.

If that ideology would be out of the way, it could actually be tested pretty good via unittest running a simulation. So once developed those tests would actually be pretty cheap to run.

Its just this ideologic blindspot that prevents good safety.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by kiklion on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:59AM (#28876072)
> It can be done, it just costs money.

Well money and time.

You speak as if you think that if only the great billionaires accepted a little less money then we could have safety.

How many lives are you willing to lose for a multi year delay to accommodate the FDA recreating every required test that the pharmaceutical company did? How many lives are currently lost because the current system doesn’t work?

Your suggestion is akin to voter id’s as a requirement to prevent voter fraud. How many legitimate voters are going to be prevented from voting due to the new rules to stop how many prior confirmed cases of voter fraud?

This isn’t a lack of resources. This is society deciding that the resources are better used elsewhere.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by ethbr0 on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:26AM (#28876225)
> This is society* deciding that the resources are better used elsewhere

* Actual decisions on resource allocation made by regulatory agencies, which have a close partnership and history of employment with the industry being regulated.

It's different to say "society decided" vs 'a specialized subset of society, with tangled incentives, decided.'

At the end of the day, it's a spectrum from (no oversight) to (full, independent validation).

Boeing didn't want MCAS highlighted as a change, Boeing didn't want the FAA to independently discover it, and Boeing got all these things. Either by action on its part or by design of what the FAA did and did not independently verify.

That's a strong indicator we should shift regulatory posture further towards (full, independent verification). And while it may be cost prohibitive to shift all the way there, that's doesn't mean we can't shift closer to it.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by Randosaurus on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:25AM (#28876980)
This is the only real reasonable stance in light of what happened with the 737 MAX.
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by verve_rat on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:28AM (#28876240)
Did society decide this distribution of resources? Or was it lobbying?
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by ncmncm on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:34AM (#28878875)
Our society, as presently organized, delegates that choice to lobbyists. That is one failing.

The problem with the FAA vs Boeing is not that the system is designed around the (correct!) assumption that the public's and FAA's interests, on one hand, and Boeing's interests on the other are aligned. This failure cost Boeing enormously!

What was not aligned were Boeing's interests and Boeing upper management interests. The pervasive failure of our society to force CxOs to align with the companies they run and with society at large is much bigger than just in aviation.

That some pilot was indicted, but not the management he was responsive to, is a glaring indicator of this failing.

Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by verve_rat on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:25AM (#28876217)
But in the case of aircraft we pay for that innovation and "progress" with dead bodies. Maybe it is time to rethink the cost/benefit of how we enforce these regulations.
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by asah on Friday October 15, 2021 @07:53AM (#28876771)
LOL speling: sauce effect => side effect!
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by snowwrestler on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:21AM (#28876955)
The 737 Max is not aerodynamically unstable. I don’t know where people got this idea. The purpose of MCAS is to match existing stick pressure progression in certain situations. It’s not a fly-by-wire system like the F-16.
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by roelschroeven on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:27AM (#28877451)
Not just existing stick pressure progression, but required stick pressure progression. As far as I understand it, in that specific situation the 737 MAX without MCAS does not comply with the rules regarding aerodynamic stability. It's not dramatic, doesn't manifest itself in normal flight, and could be dealt with by pilots quite easily as far as I understand it. But it's a rule, and it was important enough for Boeing to first put a quite gentle MCAS on the plane, and then to increase the effect of MCAS.
Re:Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for ... by salawat on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:38PM (#28883416)
This is correct. It is non-compliance for control stick forces to slacken towards a stall on a passenger carrying aircraft. They put a gadget in the system to render it compliant.

Unfortunately, they did not work as hard as they should have to ensure that it would not malfunction. Or to make sure if it did pilot's were aware and had a chance to develop muscle memory for it.

All of that was Management's push.