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Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by shadowgovt on Thursday October 14, 2021 @10:50AM (#28865034)
> and makes people dumber by obscuring what things really are.

"What things really are" is microscopic invisible electrical patterns thrumming through specially-shaped chemically-doped sand to shove some crystals back and forth to change some reflected and emitted light frequencies that hit a human eye to be interpreted by a human brain.

Literally everything about UX is obscuring what things really are, because what things really are is "utterly incompatible with human cognition." There's an entire field of disciplined study to build a compatibility layer regular people can use; without it, all these fancy computers are just dumb matter in weird shapes.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by Spivak on Thursday October 14, 2021 @10:56AM (#28865129)
I think a good point to bring up despite it being absurd. It's not that current trends in UX hide "what things really are" because we all decide what the metaphors are so much as current UX trends don't teach users the vocabulary we use to talk about the parts of a UI. You literally just have to know what a "search bar" is -- nothing is ever going to tell you. There's no text on the screen that says "Search Bar."

The fact that people who work in tech have to jump from precise terminology like "open your browser, and navigate to $URL" to stuff like "click the E and then find the bar at the top where you search thing and type..." is 100% our failing. We are the ones responsible for creating a population of people who are tech "illiterate" because we've spend all our time and effort keeping the words from users.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by shadowgovt on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:01AM (#28865215)
Correct. And decades of research have strongly suggested there's an upper limit to how much you can teach the average user.

Remember: XEROX PARC's GUI breakthrough was "What if we make working on a computer feel like pushing stuff around on an office desk." "Educating the user" required walking three-quarters of the way to what they were already familiar with.

Instead of trying to teach users how a search bar is different from a URL bar, there's a lot of meat on the bones of the idea of just making them the same thing. They look like the same thing. They act like the same thing. Maybe they are the same thing?

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by goohle on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:40AM (#28865804)
Yeah, but keyboard has so many keys, which looks too similar and act in similar way. Why not to free user from typing? Just make one big button, called «Home», which will navigate user to Start of Internet, where he can select the site instead of searching it.

Moreover, most of the time users are just watching video, so why not to launch a video stream right after powering of the device? Why we need to confuse user with these buttons and Internet at all?

Moreover, user are watching video to satisfy their hunger for new, to feel good. Why not just to produce a chemical which make the same when consumed? Or just plant electrodes into brain, which is much safer. Then, without burden of these users, we will able to use a browser with separate URL and search bars, which is good for work performance.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by shadowgovt on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:33PM (#28866492)
> Moreover, most of the time users are just watching video, so why not to launch a video stream right after powering of the device? Why we need to confuse user with these buttons and Internet at all?

I can tell you're being facetious, but you actually just described "television," and you should see the numbers on how many people buy cable instead of cutting the cord and subscribing to a handful of streaming services for half the price specifically because (and they do surveys on this stuff) "I just want it to work; I don't want to search for something to watch, I want to turn it on, it's already playing something, and I just put it in the background."

> we will able to use a browser with separate URL and search bars, which is good for work performance

Maybe I just don't do the kind of work where it's mattered, but the fact that my URL bar also accepts keywords and auto-directs them to a search engine has never impacted my work performance (perhaps because I use bookmarks for anything I need to get to frequently, bypassing the URL bar entirely).

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by goohle on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:28PM (#28879602)
> I can tell you're being facetious, but you actually just described "television,"

My mom has 64" 4k TV with excellent image quality, but very often (right now, for example) she watches YouTube on her old CoreDuo PC with 24" screen, in small window. I don't know why.

My search bar shows me my past searches, instead of random suggestions, while my URL bar shows my past URL's, which saves tons of time for me when I need to find a past site or a past search. Also, I can quickly select another specialized search engine for a search.

I general, general people needs something simple, while a professional needs something powerful.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by shadowgovt on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:10PM (#28883174)
> Also, I can quickly select another specialized search engine for a search.

Chrome's unified bar currently supports that. Type a fragment of a site name and hit tab... If the site published a standard search mapping in its metadata, the bar changes modes to direct a search query to the specified website. Super useful for GitHub.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by Spivak on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:05AM (#28865298)
100% agreed, I have no problem smushing the two concepts together but also we then have to tell users in the UI and make it visually discoverable that the bar thing is called the "navigation bar" or whatever so we can refer to it.

I would absolutely kill for a shortcut that when held creates an overlay that puts labels on all the UI elements so I can say, "hold Ctrl+H and look for navigation bar."

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by Izkata on Thursday October 14, 2021 @08:36PM (#28872319)
> You literally just have to know what a "search bar" is -- nothing is ever going to tell you. There's no text on the screen that says "Search Bar."

I am literally looking at a bar labeled "Search" at the top of my browser window right now.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by Avicebron on Thursday October 14, 2021 @10:57AM (#28865145)
I think the post was really talking about the limits of human agency. If we could easily and manually move those electrons ourselves, we probably would be vastly more intuitive and able to tailor the best answer for our query. I think having a relatively intelligible URL bar allows people more freedom from whatever the larger agenda those who would have such an advanced search bar that you type in "object" and it automatically directs you to "big co's" sale of that object with no real thought, why encourage people to use less of their capacity to navigate? Overall I think we should be elevating society not abstracting away any effort to the detriment of the human mind.

"As we approach the limit of efficiency, movement because becomes so little that it is practically inert, nothing has to move because it's already there, where it is supposed to be" - me

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by shadowgovt on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:04AM (#28865280)
> why encourage people to use less of their capacity to navigate

Because automating tedium is the purpose of the machine. Most of what we do is in pursuit of allowing the user to do more with less of their capacity.

The URL itself is a naming abstraction to let users identify things. And it's not even a great one; it has some sharp edges from the end-user's point of view (why does the end user care about protocol? They just want the thing. Why do they care about domain? They just want the thing. Why is the path nine slashes long? The thing they saw yesterday was just "history of mesopotamia;" if they type that in, they should just get the thing). Allowing the bar to accept and intelligently identify multiple different ways to identify things is an increase in capability, not a decrease.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by Avicebron on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:17AM (#28865467)
Sure, I don't disagree that automating tedium (I'd say self discovery isn't tedium, but not quibble) is the purpose of the machine.

However, what I take issue is with "intelligently identify multiple ways to identify "the thing"" sure, in you're example if someone wants to get to the top search result for "the history of mesopotamia" it might be doing alright...but, who is the one who decided what that search result is, if I type in "history of mesopotamia" and I get shunted directly to the wikipedia entry, maybe that's all ever get, I won't see the thing I really might have wanted which was a specific book about stone tablets of mesopotamia.

The point is, offloading our intelligence to "the machine" only makes as smart or as agenda driven as the machine and its maker, this overall must have some limiting effect. even if doing more with less capacity is good, if the capacity itself is limited to the machine, then it's like saying, I can eat more pie, but the pie is also shrinking.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by CRConrad on Saturday October 16, 2021 @06:12AM (#28886789)
> > why encourage people to use less of their capacity to navigate

> Because automating tedium is the purpose of the machine.

Getting people to think of knowing where they are and what they're doing as "tedium" is exactly what The Man wants. Congratulations on your succesful assimilation.

Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by itchyjunk on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:05AM (#28865299)
I guess we live several abstraction layer away from "reality" anyways. So saying people should learn one abstraction and not the other isn't justified in and off itself. So if typing in random box leads to the same result as typing in some specific box, fine and well?
Re:Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users by godshatter on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:45PM (#28866644)
Except that combining them causes the side effect of sending everything to a third party, rather than just what they are willing to give them. Does the search provider really need to know what url you wanted to go to? Especially given that most of them are greedily saving that information in order to better convince you to buy something you don't want or need at the behest of someone else.

Maybe instead of "which box should they type into" we should be asking why the url interface is a simple text box to begin with.