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Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 11, 2021 @03:43AM (#28825830)
The biggest problem with this is that we already have regulations than punish banks for processing illegal transactions.

If you don't want that, and you want the banks not to refuse any legal transactions, that's easy. They then don't refuse to process any transactions at all.

If you do want them to refuse illegal transactions, and they're allowed to refuse legal transactions, that makes it easy for the bank because then they just refuse anything marginal even if it's totally legitimate. This is what we have now. It's not a problem for the bank but it's a big problem for the people getting unjustly locked out.

Expecting the bank to process no illegal transactions and all legal transactions is an impossible burden, because nobody actually knows what that means. The meaning of a lot of laws isn't even settled until they get litigated in court and set a precedent. It would require the bank to be infallible, and know everything about everybody's business, because a mistake in either direction would incur penalties.

So which one do you want? (The first one actually looks pretty good when you consider the alternatives. Let the police be the police and the bank be the bank.)

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by sverhagen on Monday October 11, 2021 @03:49AM (#28825863)
Isn't that a false choice, that's only phrased to cater to the "that makes it easy for the bank"? They are now categorically refusing certain businesses. If those businesses could at least appeal and demonstrate that they are within the law, why wouldn't banks be mandated to process the transactions? This could go with some sort of safe haven for the banks, that if they did this review process that they won't be liable if an illegal transaction slips through. (And sure, some illegal transactions would slip through, but I'm convinced that this is already the case.)
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:17AM (#28826013)
Challenging it in court is an impossible burden for most people, so the most important thing is the default. Do we want the bank to assume you're a criminal, or do we want to assume you're innocent and make the police be the ones to prove if you're not?
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by toyg on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:15AM (#28826355)
The DMCA, with all its faults, outlines a challenge process performed largely outside the courts. Something similar could be done for banks: bank shuts down account for company, company appeals providing some proof, bank files proof somewhere and reinstates. If the bank is then sued by government or third party, it is "safe-havened" by such proof. If proof is found to be false, the company is responsible, not the bank.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Isinlor on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:41AM (#28826808)
Yes, that's sounds like a very reasonable system. I like that it shift burden of law enforcement from banks onto actual law enforcement system with proper checks and balances.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:37AM (#28829538)
> Something similar could be done for banks: bank shuts down account for company, company appeals providing some proof, bank files proof somewhere and reinstates

You're describing your state banking regulator. Also, like a bajillion federal banking regulators.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by toyg on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:41AM (#28829581)
Well then, something clearly is not working in that process, if we're here.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:44AM (#28829615)
> something clearly is not working in that process, if we're here

The article talks about credit card networks. I'm referring to banks. Banks are highly regulated, including with respect to account closures. Credit card networks are much less regulated.

If you want a non-court public venue to dispute your bank on something, anything, you have several such venues. Depending on your state, they can be quite toothsome.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by pjc50 on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:16AM (#28826009)
Possibly, but those businesses tend to be the ones that lack political cover and that a large section of the public and political sphere would happily ban anyway.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by exporectomy on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:34AM (#28826103)
Parent's point seems like what they're doing here. Trading underage porn is illegal, as well as revenge porn in some places, etc. so they forbid that and allow legal porn. Seems like they really are doing "all legal things and no illegal things" more accurately, and it really is burdensome to everyone.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:05AM (#28826285)
> Seems like they really are doing "all legal things and no illegal things" more accurately

Well, they're doing that but there's also a huge set of things whose legal status is "shmaybe?", and AnthonyMouse's point is that this is where the defaults matter. Currently, banks tend to merge that third category into "illegal" set. They could merge it into "legal" set instead, which would arguably be better for society.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by rich_sasha on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:38AM (#28826134)
I guess the question is whether the business they serve is legal. YouTube has some pirated content for sure. The business has rules in place to deal with it, for better or worse, and if someone pays with a credit card to watch something illegal in YT, that doesn’t count as the bank facilitating a crime.

I’m not defending porn as a grand corner of free speech but I don’t like banks deciding who can and cannot be paid.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Kalium on Monday October 11, 2021 @09:35AM (#28828135)
The counterpoint that a banker would make is that they're forced into this position by Congress, regulators, and prudence.

The alternative that might work is charging businesses fees that vary according to the risk of their transactions being illegal. Which sounds good on paper, but also runs the risk of leaving the bank in the position of making a large amount of fees from illegal activity, which rarely goes over well in court. Better, perhaps, to have a unified fee schedule and just refuse any business that could be unprofitable from liability.

I think the banker would have a strong point here. They're not in a place where these are always easy calls to make - transactions don't come with an evil bit. The constraints placed on them don't leave them a lot of viable choices.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Mindwipe on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:08AM (#28829177)
Mastercard's BRAM rules involve blocking quite a lot of things that are legal though - you're not allowed to mention hypnosis, or blood, or vampires in adult content, even in a completely fictional context.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by jimbob45 on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:29AM (#28829451)
Do you have a link for that? I'm having a frustratingly difficult time trying to find a concise list of the BRAM rules.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Mindwipe on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:32AM (#28829485)
Not a public one I can hand out, no. The lack of public transparency around the BRAM rules is also a significant issue imo.
Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Isinlor on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:23AM (#28826724)
It should not be so much whether it is legal or illegal in the strict sense. The question is whether bank has sufficient evidence to suspect that illegal activity is taking place.

So bank should be held liable if they:

- do not collect evidence

- do not act on evidence

- if they act without evidence

The bank should face appropriate penalties for making misjudgments in both directions. For example, you should have a right to sue bank for refusing to provide a service. The court could judge whether bank had sufficient grounds to refuse to conduct the business with you.

The bank should also provide the evidence to law enforcement to trigger investigation into alleged illegal misconduct. If the judicial systems clears you, then again, you should be able to compel bank to provide the basic financial services.

There is regulation like that for individuals in EU. Banks are obliged by the law to provide basic financial services (bank account and identification services if I recall correctly) to EU residents as part of the European Single Market.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by londons_explore on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:19AM (#28828602)
> Banks are obliged by the law to provide basic financial services (bank account and identification services if I recall correctly) to EU residents as part of the European Single Market

While offering a "Basic bank account" is a legal requirement, they have no requirement to offer that service to any specific person. In reality, it typically means that they're offered to people in debt, but not to people the bank doesn't like, american citizens, prisoners, etc.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by Isinlor on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:35AM (#28837419)
They do have a requirement to offer basic payment account to all legal EU residents. Even to people who have no legal right to reside in EU, but whose expulsion is impossible.

From DIRECTIVE 2014/92/EU CHAPTER IV, Article 16:

2. Member States shall ensure that consumers legally resident in the Union, including consumers with no fixed address and asylum seekers, and consumers who are not granted a residence permit but whose expulsion is impossible for legal or factual reasons, have the right to open and use a payment account with basic features with credit institutions located in their territory. Such a right shall apply irrespective of the consumer’s place of residence.

Member States may, in full respect of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed by the Treaties, require consumers who wish to open a payment account with basic features in their territory to show a genuine interest in doing so.

Member States shall ensure that the exercise of the right is not made too difficult or burdensome for the consumer.

From: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...

If you are legally resident in an EU country you are entitled to open a "basic payment account".

When banks can refuse you a basic payment account

You can be refused an account if you do not comply with EU rules on money laundering and terrorist financing.

In some EU countries, you may be refused a basic bank account if you already have a similar account with another bank in the same country.

If you're applying for a basic payment account outside the country where you live, banks in some EU countries may also want you to prove a genuine interest for doing so – for example if you live in one country but work in another.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by rich_sasha on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:35AM (#28826113)
There is a third way. Financial institutions cannot facilitate money laundering (well...). But they can’t just let that hang. You do due diligence, you’re either happy that the business looks legit enough, or you have doubts . In the latter case you inform authorities, and they sort the question. Either you get the go ahead or you’re dealing with a criminal, and the state takes it out of your hands.

You can imagine a similar model for payments. The bank can’t just indefinitely say “umm not sure”, it has to go one way or the other.

Re:Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of th... by londons_explore on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:16AM (#28828563)
> a mistake in either direction would incur penalties.

It seems reasonable to just make the fines small, and the bank can try to minimize them by having their policies match what a court will find for those which are taken to court.